scales help for a novice

mike_l

The way the 7th was explained to me was, it's either a major 7 (IE from the major scale), or a dominant 7 (IE from the minor scale).

I understand the difference, but cannot understand that just because it comes from the minor scale that it's dominant.

Surely it would be either a major 7 or a minor 7.

 

But maybe I just didn't understand the explanation properly.

I do understand exactly what Clarky and Viz have said about the 7th and how it fits in, so maybe the original explanation was a bit crap.

viz

OK @Mike_L, what you have is this:

 

Each mode, and therefore triad chord, of the diatonic scale is either major, minor or diminished. But when you add the 7th note, the chords become either major, minor, diminished OR DOMINANT, as follows (all based on the key of C):

1st mode (ionian): Cmaj7 (C, E, G, - MAJOR 7th. (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)

2nd mode (dorian): Dmin7 (D, F, A, C) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

3rd mode (phrygian): Emin7 (E, G, B, D) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

4th mode (lydian): Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E) - MAJOR 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)

5th mode (mixolydian): G7 (G, B, D, F) - DOMINANT 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 3)

6th mode (aeolian): Amin7 (A, C, E, G) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

7th mode (locrian): Bdim7 (B, D, F, Ab) - DIMINISHED 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 3, 3 - ok this breaks away from the diatonic - the chord BDFA is called the half-diminished 7th, or minor 7 flat 5 and is very unstable.)

 

So you see, there is that Dominant 7th. It's the only one with a major triad and a minor 7th, and hey presto, it's in the Mixolydian scale, ergo it's in the V position, which is called the dominant chord (regardless of whether you play the 7th or not). Each note in the major scale, and thus the chord that stems from each, has a name - as well as being called I, II, III, V etc, they are also called Tonic, Supertonic, mediant, Subdominant, DOMINANT, sub mediant, leading note, and then back to Tonic. So the Dominant is always the V chord, and if you add a natural 7th to it, you get a dominant 7th chord, and it always leads to the chord a 4th above (or a 5th below) - the tonic.

 

So whoever told you that was wrong. The Dominant 7 chord is based on the major triad (mixolydian, the V chord), and it has a Natural (or minor) 7th. Its fret intervals are 4, 3, 3, the only one in the set that has that.

 

 

mike_l

@viz ; cheers, I do get what you've said, and your previous explanation. My non-understanding was with the way thing were originally explained.

viz

Yep, thought as much

Clarky

viz said:

OK @Mike_L, what you have is this:

 

Each mode, and therefore triad chord, of the diatonic scale is either major, minor or diminished. But when you add the 7th note, the chords become either major, minor, diminished OR DOMINANT, as follows (all based on the key of C):

1st mode (ionian): Cmaj7 (C, E, G, - MAJOR 7th. (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)

2nd mode (dorian): Dmin7 (D, F, A, C) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

3rd mode (phrygian): Emin7 (E, G, B, D) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

4th mode (lydian): Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E) - MAJOR 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)

5th mode (mixolydian): G7 (G, B, D, F) - DOMINANT 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 3)

6th mode (aeolian): Amin7 (A, C, E, G) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

7th mode (locrian): Bdim7 (B, D, F, Ab) - DIMINISHED 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 3, 3 - ok this breaks away from the diatonic - the chord BDFA is called the half-diminished 7th, or minor 7 flat 5 and is very unstable.)

 

So you see, there is that Dominant 7th. It's the only one with a major triad and a minor 7th, and hey presto, it's in the Mixolydian scale, ergo it's in the V position, which is called the dominant chord (regardless of whether you play the 7th or not). Each note in the major scale, and thus the chord that stems from each, has a name - as well as being called I, II, III, V etc, they are also called Tonic, Supertonic, mediant, Subdominant, DOMINANT, sub mediant, leading note, and then back to Tonic. So the Dominant is always the V chord, and if you add a natural 7th to it, you get a dominant 7th chord, and it always leads to the chord a 4th above (or a 5th below) - the tonic.

 

So whoever told you that was wrong. The Dominant 7 chord is based on the major triad (mixolydian, the V chord), and it has a Natural (or minor) 7th. Its fret intervals are 4, 3, 3, the only one in the set that has that.

 

 

you don't really need modes to describe all this…

you're simply deriving chords from each degree of a major scale..

so if you were in the key of C major, all of those chords would apply.. and if when playing a piece in C, and the chord Am showed up, you would never be playing Aeolian mode.. you'd still be playing in the key of C over chord VI 

viz

Oh absolutely @Clarky, yes, thanks for clarifying; I'm not intending to imply that you modulate to G every time you play the dominant scale or the dominant chord. My aim was just to point out that the dominant scale, the 5th degree of the major scale, which is called the V, and shares its notes with the mixolydian scale, is called 'dominant' because it is so important in pointing to the tonic, and that adding the 7 to the triad emphasises this.

I thought for those who understand the degrees of the major scale it might be helpful to have all the information in one place - the chord notes, the name of the scale on which they're based, the name of each scale's root note, and the intervals - sorry if I misled anyone!

frankus

like here @digitalscream: motivation vs information

I know my music theory but I've skim-read the last load of posts.. TMI IMO, I know clarky has more on tap but I think on the internet noone can see their student go cross-eyed.

Clarky

just a little FYI sort of thing....

I see guys that are new to the academic side of music majorly get their lil' nix in a twist regarding modes.. so when I teach all this to my students, here's how I go about it...

get them to learn the chromatic scale first [cos it's essentially learning the alphabet]

then the major scale

derive the triads and 7th chords from the major / chord spelling

the minor scale and point out the beautiful coincidence that the relative minor shares the same pool of notes as it's 'parent' major scale.. being very concious to ensure they understand that Am and C are totally different keys / scales...

when they 100% convince me that they understand the relationship between major and relative minor [especially that these are totally difference scales that just happen to share the same note pool], then getting them to understand modes is just more of the same and actually it then becomes quite simple..

Clarky

I think the biggest confusion is folk trying to think in terms of using modes over every chord whilst not changing key..

so in C, when G7 is sounding they think they are playing mixo rather than being in the key of G over chord V.. thinking like that just leads them into a world of confusion..

frankus

Well that's confused me!

If I'm playing G7 in the key of C, the V chord is G7 and if the next chord is Cmaj - I'm going to go batshit crazy... if it's not I'll play G lydian dominant or G mixo

But then I grew up not knowing the difference between relative and derivative methods of modes... the two serve vastly different purposes that are essentially the same thing but serve people in different ways..

Relative - good for pitch axis over static vamps
Derivative - good for fast moving diatonic stuff in a known key.

IMO

Clarky

I'm just talking about novice players just taking their first steps into the basic of theory and stuff..

if the piece of music is in C, it don't matter what chords from the key of C are happening, you're still in the key of C..

it's a piece of piss to blow away noobs with demonstrations of extreme cleverness.. the prob is.. they tend not to learn much from it.. 

EDIT: I feel the need to add to the comment above to ensure that I'm not misunderstood..

there's a lot of us that are so comfortable with music academia, that when asked a question we answer it.. and oh fk do we answer it.. we can easily get carried away trying to stuff everything we know into some fellas head thinking that we're actually helping.. I've done this so many times that folk stopped asking me stuff.. they'd ask "Clarky, give me the short version".. and then I'd still go off on one… so after time, I've actually come to understand that often the best answer to a question is not the fullest one that eventually ends up at sub-atomic levels.. but the simplest one that can actually be understood by the person asking.. which then hopefully sticks with them..

so this.. "it's a piece of piss to blow away noobs with demonstrations of extreme cleverness.." is actually a comment about me.. unintentionally wiping out a noobs brain whilst thinking to myself "yeah.. I really helped that guy".. I'm hoping it's a habit I've killed off now.. which is why I was trying to avoid bring the whole modes mess into answering the question.. a simple question should hopefully get a simple answer..

Clarky

mike_l said:

The way the 7th was explained to me was, it's either a major 7 (IE from the major scale), or a dominant 7 (IE from the minor scale).

I understand the difference, but cannot understand that just because it comes from the minor scale that it's dominant.

Surely it would be either a major 7 or a minor 7.

 

But maybe I just didn't understand the explanation properly.

I do understand exactly what Clarky and Viz have said about the 7th and how it fits in, so maybe the original explanation was a bit crap.

@mike_l

Try looking at it like this. A scale generates chords whereby each note of the scale can be a root of a chord.

before we start, we need to know a few things up front.

intervals and chord 'spellings'

each of these intervals is 1 semi-tone [1 fret] further from the tonic [the starting note] than the next

Tonic

min2nd [think 'the next fret above']

maj2nd [think '2 frets above']

min3rd [3 frets above]

maj3rd

perfect4th

augmented4th / diminshed5th

perfect 5th

min6th

maj6th

min7th

maj7th

 

we also need to know how to "spell" triads:

major: root, maj3rd, perf5th

minor: root, min3rd, perf5th

diminished: root, min3rd, dim5th

 

If you look at the C major scale, we can create the chords by stacking up intervals a 3rd apart.

example:

The scale of C is: C, D, E, F, G, A, B

chord I = C, E, G [all of these notes are a 3rd apart basically because I skip a note and choose the next]

the interval C to E is a maj3rd, the interval C to G is a perf5th, so the chord is C

chord II = D, F, A

the interval D to F is a min3rd, the interval D to A is a perf5th, so the chord is Dm

and so on.. you should be able to work out the remainnig triads for yourself..

the killer part is that you should notice that a major chord occurs 3 times, a minor chord 3 times and adim chord once.. this means that when looking at a single major tried in isolation, you can cosider that it has the possibility of belowing to three different major scales.. this therefore means that you have more options open to you than the obvious "C belows to the key of C, Cm belongs to the key of Cm"

mike_l

@Clarky cheers dude, I appreciate the explanation, I was really getting at (probably badly) that when the 7th was explained to me originally it was done badly.

Clarky

to get the chords of the 7th, you simply stack the next 3rd in the scale on top of the triad you have..

7th chord spellings:

maj7: root, maj3rd, perf5th, maj7th

dominant7: root, maj3rd, perf5th, min7th

min7th: root, min3rd, perf5th, min7th

half diminished 7th [aka m7b5]: root, min3rd, perf5th, min7th

so... using the scale of C, chord I7 = C, E, G, B, C triad with a maj7th = Cmaj7

chord II7 = D, F, A, C,  Dm triad with a min7th = Dm7

and so on

Clarky

you should now notice that things change a bit.. in a major scale there are two maj7 cohrds, three min7 chords, one dom7 and one m7b5.. so when chords of the 7th show up, it starts screwing down your scale options... and as chord V7 only occurs once, you generally [but not always] consider it to be chord V of a given key..

for example.. A7 is chord V of D, C7 is V of F, G7 is V of C..

in the event that you see a dom7 chord, that is not chord V of the key you're in, you still treat it as if it were chord V of the key it should relate to..

example..

progression: Em / D / Am / C7

chords Em, D and Am are in the key of Em, C7 is not. C7 is V of F, so when the C7 is sounding, you can start playing licks / choosing notes from the key of F.. you are now playing modally just over this chord.. you'll be plaing C Mixolydian.. when the progression starts over with the Em chord, you return to the key of Em..

this sort of thing id a nice way to start dipping your toe into the pool of modal playing..

Clarky

mike_l said:

@Clarky cheers dude, I appreciate the explanation, I was really getting at (probably badly) that when the 7th was explained to me originally it was done badly.

ahh ok... I thought maybe you was having a bit of agg getting your head around some of the nuts and bolts..

mike_l

Clarky said:

mike_l said:

@Clarky cheers dude, I appreciate the explanation, I was really getting at (probably badly) that when the 7th was explained to me originally it was done badly.

ahh ok... I thought maybe you was having a bit of agg getting your head around some of the nuts and bolts..

No worries, thanks again for the explanation. It has cleared the last of the murk.

Clarky

I think the killer thing is to learn everything in the right order..

chromatic scale, then intervals, then the scale, then chord spellings.. and then to see the chords fall out of the scale and work out what they are..

learn a little at a time and make sure that each of those lil' things is 100% nailled before moving on.. because each topic builds on the previous and paves the way for the next..

then it'll all make sense and stick