The cricket thread

Heartfeltdawn

scrumhalf said:

Or they could have had a keeper/batsman with recent experience of playing in India - Sam Billings.

Who, like Duckett, is experienced in hitting second division spinners all over the park in first class cricket and his Indian experience is limited to hitting T20 attacks around. Playing T20 cricket in India is no substitute for experience of playing spinners in the Test arena on a pitch like Mohali. It's not like his first class record is anything to shout about either when compared to Buttler's for instance. 

@crunchman And I agreed with you. Give him credit though, Bairstow has done a good job although I fancy keeping at Mohali is going to really test him. 

crunchman

Bairstow has definitely improved as a keeper but if you are going to give him the responsibility of batting at 5 then he shouldn't be keeping.  Look at the differences in the batting averages of Sangakarra or Stewart when they were keeping versus when they played as batsmen only.  There's a reason why Gilchrist, as great a batsman as he was, never played higher than 7 for the Aussies.

Heartfeltdawn

I don't disagree. In the like of Bairstow and Buttler, we have guys who could be making serious runs as specialist batsmen. I'd rather have a side with the two JBs as batsmen averaging 45-50, which I think they are both capable of, with a wicketkeeper averaging 25 down the bottom, then having a succession of keeper batsmen averaging 35. You could also argue that we have enough lower order ability with Moeen and Woakes in particular to facilitate a proper wicketkeeper who doesn't average above 30. 

Gilchrist set a standard that was fairly unique. With a bowling attack like that, he didn't have too many long days out in the sun. With the batting ahead of him, he could get the rest he needed. Only Dhoni comes close and I wouldn't dare suggest that he was anywhere near Gillie's class with the bat in Test cricket and arguably was less with the gloves as well. But in the way that the Aussies got obsessed with an all rounder post-2005 and Flintoff, so world cricket has been obsessed with wicketkeeper batsmen. Look at the Kiwis, they've got the side flooded with them. 

iseverynamegone

Unsure Moeen at 4 is wise. We had a settled lower middle order which has been the strength of the batting which is now changed . Should have put Buttler in at 4 , whilst lack of batting is a major concern he is certainly talented enough to play there. 

cj73

Woke up at 0700.  Opened BBC sport app.  Headline in live coverage "tourists suffer top order collapse".  Nice to see England bucking the "win toss, won match" theory 

scrumhalf

We used to be "five out, all out". We now seem to be "one out, four out".

Heartfeltdawn

It's a trend you see across a lot of cricketing nations right now. Middle order woes for Australia, the Saffers aren't immune, England's problems are well documented, and it's arguable that Kohli has made the Indian middle order look much better than it is for a while. Personally I'd say it's the influence of T20 cricket. A lot of batsmen are geared up for attack rather than for defence and consequently they can't handle conditions that are a little tougher than your average T20 wicket. This is why I don't see the call for Sam Billings as being particularly strong. Playing in India in hit and giggle cricket isn't like playing on a turning track with men around the bat. 

Hell of a good toss to win. When you see Ashwin bowling with an old ball and getting it to spit at Woakes, then you fancy things will be spicy later on. 

crunchman

England haven't batted well, but the way the Indian quicks managed to get swing - reverse with the old ball and conventional with the second new ball - means that if England bowl well they have a chance of getting them out for a reasonable first innings score.  It probably depends on getting Kohli cheaply though.

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

England haven't batted well, but the way the Indian quicks managed to get swing - reverse with the old ball and conventional with the second new ball - means that if England bowl well they have a chance of getting them out for a reasonable first innings score.  It probably depends on getting Kohli cheaply though.

The pitch has been slow with some irregularities. Hameed must wonder what's coming next, out to a shooter in the 2nd innings last Test and today got one that really did pop on him. It's a real tennis ball bounce if you can get it to go. Aakash Chopra wrote that the cracks in the pitch were moving before play had begun. It's set up to be pretty intriguing for the next two days. 

scrumhalf

We've noty mentioned today's play yet, so I'll have a go.

Oh, bollocks.

crunchman

How do you go about replacing Hameed?

Keaton Jennings is probably the next best opener and is with the Lions in the UAE but I'm not sure that bringing in another left hander would be ideal.

scrumhalf

I'd keep Hameed in India and get him to do some batting clinics!

scrumhalf

Well, that wasn't a one-sided day of play at all, was it?

On a ligher note, today in 1979:

crunchman

I can understand why India batted on so he could get his triple, but they really needed more time at England tonight when they could bowl at tired batsmen who had been in the field for two days.  Once he got to 280 they really had to carry on.  They should have declared as soon as he reached 250.

Without a couple of wickets tonight and with a good night's sleep England should be able to bat through the last day.  Should and will are not necessarily the same thing though.

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

I can understand why India batted on so he could get his triple, but they really needed more time at England tonight when they could bowl at tired batsmen who had been in the field for two days.  Once he got to 280 they really had to carry on.  They should have declared as soon as he reached 250.

Without a couple of wickets tonight and with a good night's sleep England should be able to bat through the last day.  Should and will are not necessarily the same thing though.

Which means they won't reach tea tomorrow  

Despite the series defeat, there is a lot to be positive about. Although I maintain it was a mistake not to take an experienced middle order batsman in the form of Ian Bell, Hameed and Jennings have done more than enough to think that they will be there against West Indies and South Africa next season. Although his figures don't show it, Jake Ball has done enough to show that he is worth developing at the top level. Anderson, Broad, and Woakes is a good attack and with Ball, Finn, Footitt, and Wood behind them, we have some depth. Giving Buttler the bat only is also something that should be developed over the summer. 

The same old dilemma exists in the slow bowling department. Rashid simply doesn't have a stock ball. The strength of Warne was the consistency of his stock ball in terms of length and direction. That's why his straight on delivery in 2005 was so potent. Having a couple of different googlies as Rashid does counts for sod all if the one or two wickets you get with them are counteracted by a lot of shit pitching all over the shop. Having a shit stock ball and a load of variations works in one day cricket when batsmen are going for you but in Test cricket they know that they can sit back and wait for the rubbish to float down. There is no need to take a chance against him because he releases the pressure himself. The same is true of Imran Tahir and look at how the Aussies smacked him about the Test park in 2012...

All these subcontinental Tests have shown is that we are nowhere near finding a lead spinner. Moeen is more than a part-timer but he's not an outright bowler. Rashid isn't consistent enough to play as spinner #1 on English soil so might be spinner #2 away. The selection of Batty was shite to start with and quite possibly the worst selection since Darren Pattinson. Ansari didn't show too much, partly down to injury, and Dawson has shown some pluck but really won't be needed much in Tests in the UK. He did however make me feel bloody old as I remember him playing on the boundary lines as a kid years ago whilst I was bowling to his dad in league cricket. Grey hair and all that jazz...

I think Cook will step down before the end of the summer. I rather fancy a Root as captain-Buttler as VC combination for Australia next winter with Cook there offering some senior support. It's quite clear that the Australians have gone for something more attacking (the selections of Wade and Maddinson in the Test team are the indicators are there). In 2005 we fought fire with fire, and I don't think Cook right now has the right fire to throw back at them. I'm also mindful of how Michael Vaughan ended up as captain, thrown in at the deep end against South Africa. One other aspect: a bit was written this week about how Root felt he needed to grow up. He only needs to look at how the captaincy took Virat Kohli to the next level in terms of maturity and batting performance. Personally I would install Root as captain prior to the SA series, especially now de Villiers has stepped down as Test captain. 

On and bat Root at four FFS. Note how Steve Smith is back down at 4 again. 



Cook
Jennings
Hameed (at 3 or 2. Depends on whether the selectors want a right-left hand combination or two lefties up top)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Moeen
Broad (now the real leader of the bowling unit. Not sure Jimmy will make Australia). 
Anderson

UnclePsychosis

crunchman said:

I can understand why India batted on so he could get his triple, but they really needed more time at England tonight when they could bowl at tired batsmen who had been in the field for two days.  Once he got to 280 they really had to carry on.  They should have declared as soon as he reached 250.

Without a couple of wickets tonight and with a good night's sleep England should be able to bat through the last day.  Should and will are not necessarily the same thing though.

India have already won the series. I'd agree with their decision to go for the triple ton - a dead rubber test match will be forgotten in six months time, that knock won't be. 

crunchman

Buttler is not a test batsman at this stage.  His dismissal in this match trying to work a dead straight ball on middle stump to leg is not the shot of a test batsman.  SA will eat him alive.  I'm not saying he can't be a test batsman but he isn't one at the moment.

You don't want your keeper batting at 5 either.  If Bairstow keeps then he needs to be at 6 or 7 and they need to find another batsman - or play Bairstow as a batsman like SL did with Sangakarra and bring in someone like Foakes.  He's made runs for the Lions this winter.  The other option is to leave Moeen at 5.  He's made a century in this test, and he's made other runs in the series.

The problem is the balance of the side.  If you do play Bairstow and/or Moeen up the order it's going to be very hard for a batsman who's used to batting at 3 or 4 for his county to come in and bat at 7 or 8.  Having the extra allrounder isn't a bad idea as it allows you to keep your bowlers fresh.  I have seen Broad and Anderson bowling at speeds in the late 80's in this series whereas they normally seem to bowl low 80's these days - probably bowling a bit within themselves.

Rocker

Nair 300 plus. Solid work but he might have preferred to amass that number when facing a top side like Pakistan........

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

Buttler is not a test batsman at this stage.  His dismissal in this match trying to work a dead straight ball on middle stump to leg is not the shot of a test batsman.  SA will eat him alive.  I'm not saying he can't be a test batsman but he isn't one at the moment.

You don't want your keeper batting at 5 either.  If Bairstow keeps then he needs to be at 6 or 7 and they need to find another batsman - or play Bairstow as a batsman like SL did with Sangakarra and bring in someone like Foakes.  He's made runs for the Lions this winter.  The other option is to leave Moeen at 5.  He's made a century in this test, and he's made other runs in the series.

The problem is the balance of the side.  If you do play Bairstow and/or Moeen up the order it's going to be very hard for a batsman who's used to batting at 3 or 4 for his county to come in and bat at 7 or 8.  Having the extra allrounder isn't a bad idea as it allows you to keep your bowlers fresh.  I have seen Broad and Anderson bowling at speeds in the late 80's in this series whereas they normally seem to bowl low 80's these days - probably bowling a bit within themselves.

No Buttler isn't a Test batsman right now. Neither was Steve Waugh when he started out. Ponting had some problems with the sauce and straightened out. Changes in technique and attitude sorted both of them out and the one major thing in JB's favour is that he's a thinking cricketer. If he can marry better judgement with his ability then we have someone very decent. I think he is worth persevering with. 

I accept the point about the wicketkeeper batting at 5. If needs be, bat Bairstow lower down the order at 7 with Buttler at 5. The worry I'd have with YJB at 7 is that he may suffer as Robin Smith did at times when he was doing fine but only had the tail, and England had one hell of a tail in those days, at the other end. YJB has kept wicket decently in India and scored runs so do you take the chance bringing Foakes in? I'm a believer that when something is working well in cricket, as it is with YJB as keeper-batsman, you shouldn't mess with it. 

Moeen is an interesting one. He has made runs but both tons have come on good batting wickets and both have been separated by some fairly hairbrained dismissals. 

Playing Tests in England in the first half of the season, there isn't the need to keep bowlers fresh as you have to in the subcontinent on a wicket like the one we see right now. Woakes, Moeen, and Stokes are genuine all rounders. Having them there allows Broad and Jimmy to be used as they should be, short spells. Dawson's jumped ahead of Ansari as the backup spinning allrounder, Rashid is still our next outright spinner choice. It does actually feel like there is a core of players there to choose from which is encouraging. England despite the series defeat are in a better place albeit with the continued problem in the slow bowling department. 

crunchman

They made it to tea!  They could still lose 6 wickets in an hour and three quarters though.  Think I've been watching England too long.

Watching Moeen this morning batting against the quicks bowling short stuff I take back what I said about keeping him at 5.  For me though that raises questions about his place in the team for home tests.  If you have 4 quicks then the spinner is either going to be used to break partnerships when all else fails, or to bowl 5 overs to give the quicks a rest.  To break partnerships I think Rashid might be a better option.  He'd also be better at disposing of the tail than Moeen.  Given that Keaton Jennings seems to be a competent bowler, you could use him and Root if you want a few tight overs to rest the quicks if Rashid leaks a few runs.

Moeen has just got out while I was writing the above.  I'm at work (should be working!) so I haven't seen it but Cricinfo described it as a revolting heave.  Has he got a brain?