Delay in loop adds treble?

RandallFlagg

I would prefer to use delay in my Victory V40 amp effects loop as I like to use amp distortion and find that the delay sounds a bit crap in front with amp distortion. Problem is that the 2 delays I've tried both add a noticeable treble bump when the delay is engaged, MXR Carbon Copy and TC Flashback both do this. Martin at Victory assures me that this not a problem with the effects loop of the amp but a problem with these pedals. Anyone else notice this and have any solutions?

ICBM

A Boss DD-series delay.

The problem is that both those pedals are true bypass, so when the pedal is off you get a slight tone suck from the length of cable in the loop. When the pedal is engaged it becomes a buffer and removes the second cable from the equation, so the tone gets brighter.

Using a Boss or other buffered pedal will keep the tone the same whether the pedal is on or off.

If you really want to use those pedals, a buffer at the start of the loop signal path should fix it, or a fully buffered loop send/return unit.

RandallFlagg

OK thanks, now I understand. Jeez, life is so much simpler when it's just guitar > lead > amp.

digitalscream

There's a switch in the Flashback which turns off the true-bypass behaviour and leaves the buffer engaged at all times; a side-effect of this is that you'll get delay trails after you switch the pedal off, for smoother transitions. Read the manual

EDIT: Holy shit, did I know something that @ICBM didn't?

RandallFlagg

Oh OK, I did read the manual when I got it but forgot about that. i'll have a look, thanks

ICBM

digitalscream said:

There's a switch in the Flashback which turns off the true-bypass behaviour and leaves the buffer engaged at all times; a side-effect of this is that you'll get delay trails after you switch the pedal off, for smoother transitions. Read the manual

EDIT: Holy shit, did I know something that @ICBM didn't?

I forgot .

I did own one briefly, but I hated the switch so much - even more than I usually do with metal click switches, it was unusually nasty and stiff, and not at all easy to change for another type - that I got rid of it as fast as possible.

But yes, try that .

DesVegas

The trails on my TC Alter Ego are lurvly

professorben

Not exactly the same but my recent experience running an Analog ( like the carbon copy) after my OCD clone resulted in exactly the same issue. And I am running all in line to the front of the amp.
It's not capacitance ( too drastic anyway) and I'm buggered if I know what it is.
Ended up getting an old DSD-3 which is awwwwwwweeeesssome

kjdowd

[quote="ICBM;1044278"]digitalscream said:

There's a switch in the Flashback which turns off the true-bypass behaviour and leaves the buffer engaged at all times; a side-effect of this is that you'll get delay trails after you switch the pedal off, for smoother transitions. Read the manual

EDIT: Holy shit, did I know something that @ICBM didn't?




It could be a new ask the umpire/penn and teller fool us type feature. Ask @ICBM, where regular fret boarders attempt to trip up @ICBM with questions about obscure single production run dutch valve amps and the nested submenus of early digital rack FX.

ICBM

professorben said:

Not exactly the same but my recent experience running an Analog ( like the carbon copy) after my OCD clone resulted in exactly the same issue. And I am running all in line to the front of the amp.
It's not capacitance ( too drastic anyway) and I'm buggered if I know what it is.

It's probably the Analog being 'half bypass' so it's loading the cable up to that point when it's off.

professorben said:

Ended up getting an old DSD-3 which is awwwwwwweeeesssome

… is the correct solution .

kjdowd said:

It could be a new ask the umpire/penn and teller fool us type feature. Ask @ICBM, where regular fret boarders attempt to trip up @ICBM with questions about obscure single production run duct valve amps and the nested submenus of early digital rack FX. 

You'd have me there . Unless it was a Boss SE-70, which I used live for years and got pretty quick at editing on the fly...

professorben

@icbm ok, but it's sounded normal when the pedal was disengaged and brighter when the delay was switched on, I took the delay out of the signal chain and the tone was the same as it was with the delay IN the chain but bypassed.

professorben

digitalscream said:

There's a switch in the Flashback which turns off the true-bypass behaviour and leaves the buffer engaged at all times; a side-effect of this is that you'll get delay trails after you switch the pedal off, for smoother transitions. Read the manual

EDIT: Holy shit, did I know something that @ICBM didn't?

Always with the trails.........

professorben

@randallflagg how are you powering these delays? Isolated power brick/one spot or batteries?

ICBM

professorben said:

@icbm ok, but it's sounded normal when the pedal was disengaged and brighter when the delay was switched on, I took the delay out of the signal chain and the tone was the same as it was with the delay IN the chain but bypassed.

In that case it's caused by the cables, not the pedal.

professorben

ICBM said:

professorben said:

@icbm ok, but it's sounded normal when the pedal was disengaged and brighter when the delay was switched on, I took the delay out of the signal chain and the tone was the same as it was with the delay IN the chain but bypassed.

In that case it's caused by the cables, not the pedal.

Still don't get it, why would the pedal cause the brightening of the tone when switched on, but not when switched off?

ICBM

professorben said:

Still don't get it, why would the pedal cause the brightening of the tone when switched on, but not when switched off? 

Because when it's on, it becomes a buffer capable of preventing the treble loss caused by the following cable.

That's why your Boss pedal works properly - it's buffered whether it's on or off.

It's absolutely true that the Boss buffer does cause a small level loss, which is why some people think they suck tone - but the important point is that it doesn't *change* when you turn the pedal on and off.

professorben

@icbm ok I get what you are saying, but my signal path starts with a 20ft cable into a boss TU2 halfway through the pedal board it hits an SD-1w then carries on through a couple of overdrives, then hits the aforementioned analogue delay, BUT the only drive pedal affected is the OCD........ The other drives sound as normal. The drastic brightening of the tone can't be attributed to the 20ft of cable going to the amp. Sorry not trying to be an arse, just genuinely trying to understand why it's happening, I've solved the problem by swapping out the pedal for a hugely improved option, but in future it might happen to a pedal or combination I don't want to swap out.

ICBM

professorben said:

@icbm ok I get what you are saying, but my signal path starts with a 20ft cable into a boss TU2 halfway through the pedal board it hits an SD-1w then carries on through a couple of overdrives, then hits the aforementioned analogue delay, BUT the only drive pedal affected is the OCD........ The other drives sound as normal. The drastic brightening of the tone can't be attributed to the 20ft of cable going to the amp.

Yes it can - although it's the other way round . The cable causes the treble loss.

The reason the OCD is affected is because it has an unusually poor output design - the output is fed directly from the volume and tone pots which will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the preceding IC stage. The cable after the board causes treble loss, and turning on any other pedal after the OCD cures it.

If you put any other properly buffered pedal directly after the OCD and before the analog uedelay it should fix it too. You could try the Boss, just leave it turned off for the experiment.

professorben

@icbm ok I get it, I understand the point you are making and feel it's more to do with the shonky powering elements of the pedals, as it doesn't seem to do it when running batteries instead of the one spot. I still disagree (respectfully) on the sheer amount of treble difference from only 20 ft of cable. Without exaggeration it's the same as turning the tone knob on a DS-1 from 12oclock to 2oclock, that's a huge treble bump. ( I have been playing for 23 years, I know my stuff, lots of gear, worked in the retail side of the industry, once stood next to John Etheridge in a queue in WHSmiths etc etc, so I know tone)

ICBM

professorben said:

@icbm ok I get it, I understand the point you are making and feel it's more to do with the shonky powering elements of the pedals, as it doesn't seem to do it when running batteries instead of the one spot. I still disagree (respectfully) on the sheer amount of treble difference from only 20 ft of cable. Without exaggeration it's the same as turning the tone knob on a DS-1 from 12oclock to 2oclock, that's a huge treble bump. ( I have been playing for 23 years, I know my stuff, lots of gear, worked in the retail side of the industry, once stood next to John Etheridge in a queue in WHSmiths etc etc, so I know tone)

I understand why you're sceptical, but I'm almost certain it's the cause. Looking at the schematic the OCD has a particularly badly-designed output section which will be very subject to capacitive loading - the fact that it's only really this pedal that is affected, and that the problem goes away when you use a Boss delay more or less proves it. It also perfectly explains why turning on another (non-buffered bypass) pedal appears to boost the treble.

It's odd that changing the type of power supply affects it though…

Try it with the OCD > Boss (bypassed) > analogue delay > cable > amp and see if it still changes when you turn on the analogue delay. If not, it's the OCD being unable to drive the cable properly that's the problem.

professorben

I'll try that on the weekend cheers mate.