Just recovered from reading about an expensive pedal

Drew_TNBD · December 2013

I got banned from TGP for questioning the moderators - Scott Peterson specifically. He's incredibly passive aggressive, and part instigates half of those Axe FX versus Kemper threads that the digital forum is famous for.

allicio · December 2013

I got accused of being a Nazi because I said I tried not to buy stuff made in China!!

stickyfiddle · December 2013

Dave_Mc said:

Yeah that's about the height of it. )

Actually you missed the bits where the fanboys keep moving the goalposts. That's a pretty big part of those threads. Once it is determined it's a clone they claim they never cared if it was a clone, or that it still sounds good, or whatever. Despite the fact that before it was reverse-engineered the same people were swearing blind it couldn't possibly be a clone "because it doesn't sound like a tubescreamer", "this is a gamechanger", "this isn't your daddy's overdrive pedal" etc.

I also forgot the constant "YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS!" bits.

No, I'm not jealous at all, I just don't want people spending $500 they can barely afford on a TS with 3 different capacitor values without realising that's what they're buying. I like buying things knowing what they are and whether they're actually worth their asking price.

bigdawg · December 2013

looking at the last page, unless its a joke post, looks like its a gooped up ultimate drive (again!)

Maxi · December 2013

Pretty much every circuit is based on something, most of the best ones are seperate stages adapted and sequenced together but the TS circuit is one of the most complimetary to input into another but theres loads that sound good and with a lower component count so I think personally using a TS circuit is a bit over kill and lacking in some imagination .

The Boss BD-2 is a pretty comprehensive schem , how many ways is that thing adding overdrive / clipping ? Id be more interested in newer designs of that philosophy .

Incidentally my profile pic is a jfet based dumble preamp on breadboard , I say dumble but I might as well say Fender because thats all it is but with an odd tone stack .

bigdawg · December 2013

this is a de gooped circuit board - someones making a lot of money out of these pedals!

stickyfiddle · December 2013

The Joyo thing is a joke- pots are in the wrong place

I don't think the Dumbloid is a total rip like the Freakish Blues thing a few years back but I'd bet my life savings it's not a completely original circuit.

Dave_Mc · December 2013

stickyfiddle said:

Dave_Mc said:

Yeah that's about the height of it. )

Actually you missed the bits where the fanboys keep moving the goalposts. That's a pretty big part of those threads. Once it is determined it's a clone they claim they never cared if it was a clone, or that it still sounds good, or whatever. Despite the fact that before it was reverse-engineered the same people were swearing blind it couldn't possibly be a clone "because it doesn't sound like a tubescreamer", "this is a gamechanger", "this isn't your daddy's overdrive pedal" etc.

I also forgot the constant "YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS!" bits.

No, I'm not jealous at all, I just don't want people spending $500 they can barely afford on a TS with 3 different capacitor values without realising that's what they're buying. I like buying things knowing what they are and whether they're actually worth their asking price.

Good point, I forgot about that too. Yeah that gets old real quick. I don't even want dumble tones, and my other gear costs a lot more than the dumbloid, but apparently I'm jealous. Yep, that makes sense.

I find I annoying how the fanboys try to paint the side advising caution as the bad guys- yet they're the ones who break all the rules/etiquette of civil debate (moving the goalposts, claiming not to have said stuff they have, namecalling, red herrings etc.).

And yeah the freekish thing was a joke. I'm guessing it's a clone or tweaked clone of some sort, though.

johnhe · December 2013

Just to add a counter point to the chorus of rants, I've found the mods at TGP to be extremely patient. Having read some of the posts on this thread, I don't find it any wonder that some folks GT banned when they get royally in the faces of those they disagree with. I find the rhetoric very aggressive and narrow minded. In the real world, people charge what they can get away with for their products. Often this has nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of the components. Some people sell loss leading products at less than cost, while others sell their products at vastly inflated prices. The world wide rule is quite simple - if people are prepared to pay £2 for a product, you would be an idiot to sell it for £1. My beef with the complainers on this thread is that no one is forcing anyone to buy a Jan Ray or a whatever. If you don't like it, or don't value whatever it is that they claim to bring to the party, then the most obvious course of action is - don't buy it. Personally I don't see the need to claim that that these manufacturers are morally corrupt. Charging hundreds of thousands for a Ferrari compared to £15k for a Ford Focus doesn't mean that the people who sell Ferrari's are crooks, but equally, I have no interest in ever buying one - even if I had that much money. Personally, I think that Boss distortion pedals suck unbelievably badly. Personally, I think that Joyo and Mooer products are completely morally indefensible clones, and I think that in many cases, they are simply wrong to sell clones of Fulltone OCD's etc. But I don't see why I have to tell other people they're wrong or stupid. I figure it's up to each individual to decide for themselves if it is right or not.

guitarfishbay · December 2013

My mate's dad won't buy pizza because he feels it is overpriced cheese on toast.

Anyway, the way I feel about it is conflicted. I feel fine with the notion that something selling at a high price point is ok and not a rip off if the person buying it feels it is worth it.

But on the other hand I can completely empathise with the anxiety and disappointment caused by the devaluing of something that was both A) expensive and

believed to retain a certain value.

I mostly find it sad when people buy into hype then lose out because they've bought something unsuitable for them due to outside influence. This is different to buying something suitable then it losing value - at least in that scenario you've achieved something. Speculating on the value of gear is always a dangerous game to play, but how a person spends their own money is up to them.

breadfan · December 2013

Bloom!

What does 'chewy' mean? I've seen that one branded about quite a bit! "Chewy under the fingers.."

Also, 'woody', 'organic', 'soupy'...

I once saw a pedal described as having a 'syrupy' tone! (it was the HWTS808, by the way!)

ThePrettyDamned · December 2013

@johnhe

Ah, the classic ford focus vs Ferrari comparison...

Ferrari *do* over price their products. Deliberately. It's an exclusivity club. Some models are only available via invitation. No, really!

It's a few hundred quid to change the colour of the thread stitching in the seats.

Now, it's a rip off for sure. But UNIQUE. you're driving a Ferrari - it's not a ford focus that looks and sounds a bit different. It's a fucking FERRARI. Tradition, heritage, history, mad huge engine, unreliable, insane. It's a Ferrari! It probably won't get you to work and back without a fuel stop and a breakdown service, but it's not for that. It's so you own a Ferrari! It'll be uncomfortable, you won't be able to park it and you might even (if imported) be fined for noise pollution. But you're driving a Ferrari!

Now, the Ford puma versus ford fiesta is a fairer comparison. Why? Well, it's a Ford fiesta chassis, engine and trim. However, it has a different body, better gearbox, larger exhaust and the engine was rebored and reconfigured in Japan to a 1.7 rev machine from the 1.6 zetec standard. This gives you a 4 seat coupe that moves significantly quicker, handles corners better thanks to lower profile and harder suspension, and has much more solid gear changes. It even has aluminium trim and gear knob. This cost more than a fiesta.

Not 4 times the price, though. I think it was about 15-20 percent more or so.

So, a modded tubescreamer, in terms of what it is, shouldn't cost 4 times the price. If hand wired, perhaps double, tops. Though I wouldn't want my only income to be hand wired cloned pedals - it suits itself more to an additional, hobby source of income.

I know labour costs - hand wired pedals are more expensive because of this labour, and I'm cool with that. But overinflating for hype on tgp? If it was in a boss enclosure for £120, it would be considered average but lacking 'bloom' or something.

With regards to boss, they have come up with an awful lot of legendary effects. So I wouldn't discount them entirely, as they're the grandaddy of tone. As for Joyo, yes, they've nabbed circuits and selling them cheap. Then again, a lot of boutique guys have nabbed circuits and sell them silly expensive, when the identical one is available from, say... Boss?

Joyo, at least, give you a lower quality pedal. You won't get top quality jacks, nor switch (btw, best switches imo are boss or vs v2s). But they're mostly nicking circuits of... Well, boutique clones of other circuits.

Edit: mooer have a usp. They're tiny.

Reckon a booteek hand wired guy could fit a point-to-point Fuzz face in a tiny enclosure? If that's what you want, that's the only option really...

ThePrettyDamned · December 2013

Looks like TGP thread on it has been removed and archived a few pages away from where it wound up.

Standard.

Dave_Mc · December 2013

johnhe said:

Just to add a counter point to the chorus of rants, I've found the mods at TGP to be extremely patient. Having read some of the posts on this thread, I don't find it any wonder that some folks GT banned when they get royally in the faces of those they disagree with. I find the rhetoric very aggressive and narrow minded. In the real world, people charge what they can get away with for their products. Often this has nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of the components. Some people sell loss leading products at less than cost, while others sell their products at vastly inflated prices. The world wide rule is quite simple - if people are prepared to pay £2 for a product, you would be an idiot to sell it for £1. My beef with the complainers on this thread is that no one is forcing anyone to buy a Jan Ray or a whatever. If you don't like it, or don't value whatever it is that they claim to bring to the party, then the most obvious course of action is - don't buy it. Personally I don't see the need to claim that that these manufacturers are morally corrupt. Charging hundreds of thousands for a Ferrari compared to £15k for a Ford Focus doesn't mean that the people who sell Ferrari's are crooks, but equally, I have no interest in ever buying one - even if I had that much money. Personally, I think that Boss distortion pedals suck unbelievably badly. Personally, I think that Joyo and Mooer products are completely morally indefensible clones, and I think that in many cases, they are simply wrong to sell clones of Fulltone OCD's etc. But I don't see why I have to tell other people they're wrong or stupid. I figure it's up to each individual to decide for themselves if it is right or not.

So basically what you're saying is, there's no point for a forum? If you're going to play the "if you disagree, don't post" card, there's no need for any forums.

To be fair, a ferrari is a fair bit better than a ford focus. If ferrari took a ford focus engine, repainted it in ferrari red and stuck a ferrari badge on it and tried to sell it for hundreds of thousands, while all the time claiming it was a genuine ferrari and that it had performance which could only be got from ferrari, I'd say that is morally corrupt. Especially if it wasn't even necessarily made all that well (as sometimes happens with the super-boutique stuff).

A lot of the things which have been cloned by the cheapos were either not entirely original (fulltone makes a fair few clones or slightly tweaked clones too, remember- this isn't black and white) or are well outside patent- if they were even patentable in the first place. it probably doesn't make them a contender for "Nice bloke of the year", but I'd argue it's not as bad as pretending you've reinvented the wheel and charging shedloads of money when it's just a slightly tweaked clone. (Allegedly) Ripping off existing circuits (which everyone else is also ripping off, by and large), being upfront about it and selling them cheaply is (in my opinion, anyway) not as bad as (allegedly) ripping off existing circuits, lying about what you've done and selling them for hilariously large prices. YMMV on that.

I'm not fussed on boss distortions either (but their ods are nice), but that's a false dichotomy- the only options aren't boss or ueber-boutique. there are plenty of cheap (or cheapish) pedals which sound great.

Also, what @ThePrettyDamned said.

johnhe · December 2013

Mmmm. I do find it thought provoking. Think upon what you have said I will.

funstuie · December 2013

What does gooped mean?

Sorry for the non cork sniffer question?

ICBM · December 2013

funstuie said:

What does gooped mean?

The PCB and components covered with black resin, so you can't see what's under there. Very occasionally used to hide a really original circuit so people can't copy it… which is what the builders want you to believe when much more commonly, they use it to hide a totally non-original circuit and don't want you to find out.

It's got bad enough that it's now a reasonable assumption that if it's used, it means that the pedal is a rip-off of something else.

ThePrettyDamned · December 2013

So, TGP thread was shut down it seems. The people who degooped it won't say what it is (indicating a modded clone) but instead are prototyping their own dumbloid clone. A clone of a clone?

It's so... TGP.

Dave_Mc · December 2013

Yeah.

I find it kinda funny that TGP acts like Freestompboxes is the devil, yet when TGP gets involved in degooping and cloning suddenly someone else is now selling a clone of it, and won't say what it is*. Say what you will about Freestompboxes, but at least they degoop, reverse-engineer and then reveal the results to the public. They're not really doing it for their own gain (most of them, anyway), just to satisfy their own curiosity.

* It's kind of hard to follow what exactly has been going on, I may well have got the wrong end of the stick and this isn't what's happened at all.

)

ThePrettyDamned · December 2013

The thread is back now, but I think they may have deleted posts.

Someone also posted a demo of it, where it sounds like a rat crossed with a big muff. Not a pretty sound... He demos how well it cleans up, too, which isn't amazing to be honest. About as well as my tubescreamer with bass boost on - tubescreamer pedals don't seem to like clean up much when there is a lot of gain, especially if the tone in rolled back for a smoother sound.

I'll be interested to know what's underneath the goop. I think someone on there *has* degooped it, but won't let on, just says low parts count (which some have claimed makes it better lololololol).

I wonder when fsb will get one.. I'm not a member, sadly, as I don't do electronics and I'd just ended up cloning stuff!

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