Modelling Amp comparison 2017

Jonathanthomas83 · April 2017

guitarfishbay said:

Well the IR is from this pack.

http://www.ownhammer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=172&products_id=382

I've found it's pretty tough to copy the dynamic response + saturation character of that amp plus loadbox clip, which Drew told me was the one to use as the benchmark since we could both use the same IR. It's possible to get near either the mutes (which I know Drew's interested in) or the chords, but getting both to be similar to the amp is tough on either modeller it seems. It may be because neither Axe FX 2 or Helix has a 50 watt EVH model, or maybe the loadbox is doing something a bit different. Or possibly it's just a difference in how all these setups handle dynamics. It isn't a judgement on which is better, just acknowledging a difference in this scenario

As a side note to Drew - maybe stick the no IR files in their own folder in the streaming folder to tidy it up? I don't think anyone is going to stream the no IR files anyway.

I thought the Axe FX did have an EVH 50w? Was playing with it last night :-) (this clip inspired me to do so).

Interested to hear what differences you and Drew think there are between mutes and chords between the different clips? You mention modellers can do either or, not both.

guitarfishbay · April 2017

It does but only the blue channel, not the red. The red model is from the 100 watt.

I'll do some more reamps and a write up in a bit.

guitarfishbay · April 2017

I'm mostly talking about the 5150 iii red there specifically as I'd expect all the other amps to have different dynamic response anyway.

celentium · April 2017

So far my favourite is the real 5150 amp into the load box + IR. The AmpFX all had useable tones, though I found at least one of the Helix tones slightly too fizzy for me.

Personally though, I think most of these nuances are lost in a mix, especially to a live audience and extra especially to an audience member that doesn't play guitar. Plenty of useable tones in these clips imo.

celentium · April 2017

Here are some Eleven Rack re-amps for comparison. I was struggling to get anywhere near the other sounds so just went for something nearer to my normal sound which isn't as dark or full as most of the other clips.

Although this is for comparison purposes with more advanced modellers, please note that these sounds are also limited by my own ability to create decent sounds. Here are the files:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jltrgosf3ylw1js/AADgHIiRAUULyUM8HFce58S2a?dl=0

All clips feature the Eleven Rack built in cabs as it does not have an IR loader.

Roland · April 2017

celentium said:

Personally though, I think most of these nuances are lost in a mix, especially to a live audience and extra especially to an audience member that doesn't play guitar.

This is more about recorded sound

guitarfishbay · April 2017

Edit - added 6505+ and streamlined the folder a bit.

guitarfishbay · April 2017

Added Mark IV and SLO, since Drew added an SLO from the Helix. The SLO I never use that much because I can never figure how to dial it in.

stratman3142 · April 2017

Hopefully ampsims count as modelling amps. If not, just ignore this.

Using the "Les Paul DI - Drop C Tuning.wav", I tried to recreate the 5150III Blue channel clip (load box plus IR).

I used the Blue Channel of the Kazrog Psycho C ampsim. I also used (what I believe is) the same Own Hammer cab impulse (IR) hosted in Recabinet 5. Link to sound clip below:

https://app.box.com/s/ugv7tc39v7xo8zrl8p30ej2chl3v6chl

Bear in mind I'm not an expert on these tones.

guitarfishbay · April 2017

Cool. I'll check out the extra clips posted tomorrow hopefully. Been out since I posted my last batch. I think I'm calling it quits unless there's another model we are going to compare cross platform

Drew_TNBD · April 2017

I just got back, will check the new clips out tomorrow!

Drew_TNBD · April 2017

Jonathanthomas83 said:

guitarfishbay said:

Well the IR is from this pack.

http://www.ownhammer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=172&products_id=382

I've found it's pretty tough to copy the dynamic response + saturation character of that amp plus loadbox clip, which Drew told me was the one to use as the benchmark since we could both use the same IR. It's possible to get near either the mutes (which I know Drew's interested in) or the chords, but getting both to be similar to the amp is tough on either modeller it seems. It may be because neither Axe FX 2 or Helix has a 50 watt EVH model, or maybe the loadbox is doing something a bit different. Or possibly it's just a difference in how all these setups handle dynamics. It isn't a judgement on which is better, just acknowledging a difference in this scenario

As a side note to Drew - maybe stick the no IR files in their own folder in the streaming folder to tidy it up? I don't think anyone is going to stream the no IR files anyway.

I thought the Axe FX did have an EVH 50w? Was playing with it last night :-) (this clip inspired me to do so).

Interested to hear what differences you and Drew think there are between mutes and chords between the different clips? You mention modellers can do either or, not both.

I think what guitarfishbay meant was that he could dial in one of the Axe FX's 5153 models to sound similar to my real amp + loadbox + IR clip for the palm-mutes at the start OR the chords at the end, but not both at the same time.

I quite like his 5153 Advanced clip, where he tweaked some of the extra parameters. It does sound different, but I quite like it.

I'm struggling to get an acceptable sound out of the Helix - I didn't like the Panama at all in this shoot-out so it was interesting to hear Sporky say it was his favourite.

For the Helix sounds, I think the Line 6 Epic amp with tons of EQ turned out the best.

I still think the real amp plus loadbox is the best sounding clip though, and it's by quite a margin. Which is depressing me, because I really didn't want that to be the case, and now my brain keeps saying 'buy some Fractal gear... buy some Fractal gear...' !!!

Jonathanthomas83 · April 2017

I agree the amp does sound better. I was shocked by how much better it sounded.

I guess I was so shocked because daily, I get amazing sounds out of the Axe FX, sounds I could only dream of with my analogue setup.

Thing is, it's been a while since I owned a high gain amp, so I've been able to dial in high gain sounds on the Axe FX without being concerned if it sounds close to the real thing or not. All I know is that the Dual Rec patch I've created gives me what I remember the real amp gave me and more (parameters that don't exist on the amp - saturation, cut, motor drive and tonnes of other things). So I'm in the ballpark (I thought I was really close, now understand I 'may' not be) and that's what matters to me.

What I take away from this is that I'm happy getting great tones out of the Fractal and am not too worried about getting dead on. And like you, the tool needs to be fit for purpose for my needs too. If a riff I love playing sounds crap, I wouldn't use a certain piece of gear...but the Fractal has taken everything I have thrown at it thrown back some amazing tones that I really enjoy. So that is where it's worth its weight in gold, for me!

Like you said, the Axe doesn't necessarily sound bad, or worse, just sounds different. Certainly sounds great to my ears, but the amp and load box sounds better!

Drew_TNBD · April 2017

One of the big take aways for me is that I don't like the combination of the bottom right speaker in my Egnater 4x12 with the SM57a - I've not tried the other speakers yet. Some of those might be nicer!

digitalscream · April 2017

OK, I just got the reamp thing working and shoved the DI through my preamp board. All files here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yfnqefjhuaxby07/AACHWu7pbBzm0w8-Io8R_93fa?dl=0

Signal chain was just interface -> Bogner Red -> AMT F-1 preamp -> interface for the "board only" ones, and interface -> Bogner Red -> AMT F-1 preamp -> JCA22H power section -> load box -> interface for the "power amp" ones.

I think the ones with "_v2" on the end of the filename are the closest to the one I used as the reference (the 5153 blue channel).

EDIT: On listening back on headphones, these clips are absolute balls - odd that I couldn't hear it on my monitors, but still...disregard them. Drew's sending me his reamp box, so I'll try again when that gets here.

guitarfishbay · April 2017

My thoughts are fairly similar to @Jonathanthomas83 ;;

This particular clip was a good challenge as it goes between some deep chugging and some open chords. Big dynamic range.

The test was prompted by a conversation between me and Drew on FB in which he mentioned his coworker reckoned the Kemper amps sounded better than the Helix. I said I agreed, and that I also thought the Fractal models did too and was willing to do a reamp test where he could pick all the variables (play the DI, pick the base tone and pick the impulse) and we could see if this was the case rather than just debating it. He told me to try to get in the ballpark of his 5150 iii red + loadbox clip.

I do think the 5150 iii red plus loadbox sounds best. I'm guessing it was pretty plug and play knowing that amp.

I was not able to match the Axe FX 2 5153 red model to the loadbox clip. Maybe there's more I could've done with the advanced parameters but I don't use them enough to know what else to use. I could either get near the chugs but then the chords didn't sound as good, or near the chords then the chugs didn't sound as good. And also I hate faffing about so much, as life is too short..

However, I still think the Axe FX was capable of sounding good and in the ballpark of the base tone. I do quite like the 6505+ tone which took me honestly about a minute to dial in. Part of my thinking was to show the Axe FX 2 really isn't difficult to get a decent amp tone from (which is subjective of course and I also think other people could do better). The only amp I didn't find easy to dial in was the SLO, which being honest I've never worked out how to use on the Axe FX 2. Still haven't!

Drew had to go to quite a length to get that epic clip using multiple extra EQ blocks and IIRC he had to use a tonematch plugin to find the EQ points (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think Drew got close with any of his other clips, the low end character on all the other models is quite different on the palm mutes. The chords and general EQ was fine. Drew is a very talented guy so I don't think he's missed anything. Possibly it's because there's no 5150 iii model but I made sure to record versions with equivalent Fractal models (there's no Archon) so that they can be compared which is hopefully useful to some.

I think the closest I got on the Axe FX 2 was the 5153 advanced clip but that was a bit of a pain to dial in if I'm being honest. Ordinarily if I needed to do that much advanced tweaking I'd have just gone to a different model.

IIRC what I did was...

Change high res frequency in speaker tab

Change mid frequency (tone stack)

Reduced sag

Changed pre-amp tube type to the one that sounded tightest/crunchiest, increased hardness parameter.

... which is more than I've done for any other patch on my Axe FX! For whatever reason I wasn't really feeling the 5153 red with basic controls. I'm not sure if @Drew_TNBD ;;posted how much EQ he needed to get that Epic clip but I assume similar levels of faff to my advanced clip. I think we both think we could've done better on certain things but there's a limit to how much time needs to be spent on something like this, plus... it shouldn't be too difficult or else there's not much advantage to digital.

The beauty of the Axe FX 2 for me is that with 258 amp models there's always another option. Usually the 5150 block is my favourite for this kind of tone but in this case I preferred the 6505+. And while a real amp can be better (I actually think the modellers sound better than the Sig X in this test) I've yet to come across a tone I was unable to get in the ballpark of to the point I was happy. I'm definitely satisfied with my Fractal and have no GAS to replace it.

I've not been at my computer since I posted my last round of clips so haven't had a chance to check out the other clips posted. I've been interested in preamp pedals for some time as I still use them for recording bass over the Axe FX2 (which doesn't model the pedals I use, but that's for another thread!)

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Modelling Amp comparison 2017

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