changing from 10's-9's

octatonic · February 2014

mike_l said:

octatonic said:

I'm afraid that 'my guitar is stable and doesn't need setting up' type of anecdotal evidence doesn't really stand up against the decades of research and writing on this topic.

Certainly different pieces of wood have different amounts of movement, some necks are demonstrably more stable than others but there is no neck that is made of wood that doesn't change.

This is one of the reasons though that we use quarter sawn wood- also to minimise shrinking.

In all seriousness, and due respect, the guitar neck has never needed tweaking, and the action has remained constant. I am NOT debating the research, or anyone else's findings, on this particular guitar the truss rod has never needed a tweak. Likewise my Jackson did at one time need quite a lot of tweaking, but has settled and hasn't had a TR adjustment in around 4 years.

I shall give the ESP a little adjustment this weekend and see how I get on.

FWIW, I have set-up all my own guitars, and am competent in doing this. I've never had one as rattly as this though.....

Also with the greatest of respect Mike, I've heard this before from a lot of people and when I eventually get my hands on their guitars it is evident that their setup work is usually pretty poor.

I had a guitar in this week for a repair and before receiving it I asked the owner how it was in terms of setup, fretwork etc and he said 'yeah fine, doesn't need anything other than a basic setup and a machine head repair'.

The guitar I got was in pretty poor shape- it needs a fret level and it was badly in need of a setup.

This is such a common situation for me- most of the guitars I get through here have owners who are unaware of what condition their guitar really is in.

I'm not saying you are representative of this- you might be great at it, and you might have a really amazing guitar that never needs adjustment but I'd like to resolve the disconnect between what I know to be true about wood and guitar necks and what some people report.

So, please help me out here- what is your process for doing a restring and setup?

How do you start it, what do you do, what tools do you use and when are you satisfied?

Give me as much detail as you can.

I'm not trying to poke holes in it but there is a real disconnect here and I'd like to see why that is.

streethawk · February 2014

streethawk said:

mike_l said:

When changing string gauge from 10's - 9's is it common that the truss rod needs a tweak?

I'm asking as the ESP has started to rattle a little since I've changed down and lowered the action. I've done the same on my Jackson, Ibanez and Strat and none of them needed a tweak.
You changed the action, this seems to have been overlooked. Or has it been overlooked - IDK.

When you say rattle, do you mean string rattle/buzz?

Nope, I've not overlooked it, I did exactly as I did with the other guitars, and I've not had any rattle on them. I've adjusted the spring tension on the Floyds too, and not had any issues on the others.

Yes, rattle is string rattle/buzz. It's really fucking annoying. I'll give the TR a tweak on the weekend.

What I'm saying is that you've not just changed the string gauge, which seems to be where the conversation has ended up. Lots of variables.

Have you lowered the action for extra comfort, or because you were changing string gauge and wanted to compensate for that?

How much relief (if any) did the neck have when it was playing right, and is that relief consistent with your other guitars?

Scenario: you like a 'straight' neck and really low action with almost indiscernible string noise. For that to work you'd better have the correct nut height and radius, a well set up trem and dead level/well raduised frets. Maybe a light right hand too!

If on the other hand you don't mind a bit of relief, and there's not much present at the moment, then tweak away and maybe it will cure the string rattle. Job done.

Depends what you want from your guitar. If a truss rod tweak doesn't work you can follow some buzz diagnoses steps and take appropriate measurements or just bite the bullet and have a decent tech give it the once over - 15 years of loyal service, guitar probably deserves it!

Here's some links you might find useful, or maybe you already have it covered from your own experience.

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/How_to_Set_Up_a_Floyd_Rose_Style_Trem?page=2

^caveats in the comments section

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/BuzzDiagnosis/buzzlist.html

mike_l · February 2014

octatonic said:

Also with the greatest of respect Mike, I've heard this before from a lot of people and when I eventually get my hands on their guitars it is evident that their setup work is usually pretty poor.

I had a guitar in this week for a repair and before receiving it I asked the owner how it was in terms of setup, fretwork etc and he said 'yeah fine, doesn't need anything other than a basic setup and a machine head repair'.

The guitar I got was in pretty poor shape- it needs a fret level and it was badly in need of a setup.

This is such a common situation for me- most of the guitars I get through here have owners who are unaware of what condition their guitar really is in.

I'm not saying you are representative of this- you might be great at it, and you might have a really amazing guitar that never needs adjustment but I'd like to resolve the disconnect between what I know to be true about wood and guitar necks and what some people report.

So, please help me out here- what is your process for doing a restring and setup?

How do you start it, what do you do, what tools do you use and when are you satisfied?

Give me as much detail as you can.

I'm not trying to poke holes in it but there is a real disconnect here and I'd like to see why that is.

My process for re-stringing is to remove the old strings, I then clean the fretboard, and guitar generally. Once the guitar is clean, I put the card from the string package to hold the Floyd flat (ie parrallel to the body).

Then it's a case of restring, tune to pitch, stretch (fingers under the stringand gently pull along the length of the string), repeat until the strings stop going flat. Tune to pitch, lock the nut down, nipped up, not mental tight. and happy days are here.

Lowering, I've lowered the Floyd a little, about 1/8th of a turn at a time, until I got a comfortable/nice playable action. I've done this one the others and not got a rattle. This one is annoying that it rattles like a bitch.

It probably could do with a fret dress, but generally it's in good nick.

For tools, I use the best I can get, the majority of my tools are either Snap-on or Sealey.

octatonic · February 2014

Thanks for the info.

So you are sighting it, rather than measuring it?

Do you use a straight edge on the neck to check the relief?

I use a Stew Mac relief gauge or a straight edge and string action gauge.

Do you check the intonation at all?

Sorry mate, but if all you are doing is what is listed in your post then I am not at all surprised it is buzzing.

You're essentially just doing a restring, not a setup.

It is highly likely you need to tweak the rod and if you haven't adjusted the intonation then you need to check that too- with a good tuner- I have a Peterson strobe and Korg rack mount strobe- they reveal issues that the cheaper pedal tuners do not.

mike_l · February 2014

@octatonic, I never said I was doing a set-up.

If I came across as doing that I appologise for the confusion.

I check intonation everytime I restring, so I know that's never out. I check that with 2 tuners, a Boss Tu-3 and Tu-80.

If I'm checking the relief, or for high frets (I haven't in this case yet...) I have a 50cm steel engineering rule specifically for that, and feeler gauges, again kept specifically for that.

I shall give the truss rod a 1/8th turn on Friday evening, and re-check everything on Saturday after work. I'll do that deliberately so I don't rush the job and cock it up.

octatonic · February 2014

mike_l said:

@octatonic, I never said I was doing a set-up.

If I came across as doing that I appologise for the confusion.

I check intonation everytime I restring, so I know that's never out. I check that with 2 tuners, a Boss Tu-3 and Tu-80.

If I'm checking the relief, or for high frets (I haven't in this case yet...) I have a 50cm steel engineering rule specifically for that, and feeler gauges, again kept specifically for that.

I shall give the truss rod a 1/8th turn on Friday evening, and re-check everything on Saturday after work. I'll do that deliberately so I don't rush the job and cock it up.

I did ask about the process for a restring and a setup, so I assumed you responded to that, not just a restring.

An 1/8th turn might work, or it might need more.

It is true that some guitars need a bit of time to settle, but most of the time you don't need to leave it overnight- make the adjustment, measure the relief, if it isn't enough then keep turning.

Most of the time I go 1/4 turn at a time.

Checking for high frets- a 50cm rule isn't going to be as good as something that can check 3 frets at a time- Stew Mac have a specialist tool called a fret rocker: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Straightedges/Fret_Rocker.html

It is more accurate and a faster way of finding tiny amounts of difference in fret heights.

mike_l · February 2014

octatonic said:

I did ask about the process for a restring and a setup, so I assumed you responded to that, not just a restring.

An 1/8th turn might work, or it might need more.

It is true that some guitars need a bit of time to settle, but most of the time you don't need to leave it overnight- make the adjustment, measure the relief, if it isn't enough then keep turning.

Most of the time I go 1/4 turn at a time.

Checking for high frets- a 50cm rule isn't going to be as good as something that can check 3 frets at a time- Stew Mac have a specialist tool called a fret rocker: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Straightedges/Fret_Rocker.html

It is more accurate and a faster way of finding tiny amounts of difference in fret heights.

I'm sorry for not responding properly to your question.

I'll try 1/8th turn first, if it need a bit more, it can get some more. I was going to leave it over night as I'm at work saturday, until 1, and will get home around 2. Then it should be good to go, and any more neccessary adjustments can be made.

Skipped · February 2014

Have you tried hybrids OP?
(Obviously) the total string tension of a 9 to 46 hybrid set is going to be closer (to the standard 10 set) than a 9 to 42 set.
Lots of companies now doing these (not just Ernie Ball) so I guess it is getting popular?

mike_l · February 2014

Skipped said:

Have you tried hybrids OP?
(Obviously) the total string tension of a 9 to 46 hybrid set is going to be closer (to the standard 10 set) than a 9 to 42 set.
Lots of companies now doing these (not just Ernie Ball) so I guess it is getting popular?

Nope, but I already have a load of strings in stock.

viz · February 2014

I use 9 11 16 26 36 46 (custome lite) - it's easy to remember because most of the numbers end in 6, and also I find the strings require the same effort to bend the same pitch. On lite sets I radically over-bend the lower strings.

bertie · February 2014

mike_l said:

When changing string gauge from 10's - 9's is i

mike_l · February 2014

bertie said:

mike_l said:

When changing string gauge from 10's - 9's is i

I is one of Bertie's Saturday night shirts?

:-?

Phil_aka_Pip · February 2014

I think he means Big Girls Blouse

p90fool · February 2014

octatonic;167544" said:
p90fool said:

octatonic said:Sorry Mike but unless this is a magic guitar that somehow breaks the laws of physics then this simply won't be the case.You might not see the need to make adjustments, but guitars move- they HAVE to.

I have to disagree, there are some very stable necks out there. I tweak most of mine a couple of times a year, but I have an '81 Tele I bought new that I've never adjusted. It's lived at a dozen different addresses in three different countries, and I've done two 80-date European tours with it.

It plays as well as all my others, though the frets are a little low now.

I'm very picky too, a lot of people who try my guitars ask me to set theirs up too, they like them so much.

I'm afraid science is indisputable.This is a very well known and well researched topic.There is a good book on wood technology that I can recommend called Understanding Wood by R.Bruce Hoadley.

I've done experiments under lab conditions examining the movement of wood with the change of humidity as part of the lutherie degree (it is a B.Sc).I can share the results of those experiments if you like- but it will take a bit of time to write out.

I'm afraid that 'my guitar is stable and doesn't need setting up' type of anecdotal evidence doesn't really stand up against the decades of research and writing on this topic.

I'm afraid my guitar is indiputable too. I'm not an idiot or a newbie, and I'm sorry my anecdote didn't "stand up".

mike_l · February 2014

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I think he means Big Girls Blouse

where's the facepalm button when you need it????????

L-)

octatonic · February 2014

p90fool said:

octatonic;167544" said:
p90fool said:

octatonic said:Sorry Mike but unless this is a magic guitar that somehow breaks the laws of physics then this simply won't be the case.You might not see the need to make adjustments, but guitars move- they HAVE to.

I have to disagree, there are some very stable necks out there. I tweak most of mine a couple of times a year, but I have an '81 Tele I bought new that I've never adjusted. It's lived at a dozen different addresses in three different countries, and I've done two 80-date European tours with it.

It plays as well as all my others, though the frets are a little low now.

I'm very picky too, a lot of people who try my guitars ask me to set theirs up too, they like them so much.

I'm afraid science is indisputable.This is a very well known and well researched topic.There is a good book on wood technology that I can recommend called Understanding Wood by R.Bruce Hoadley.

I've done experiments under lab conditions examining the movement of wood with the change of humidity as part of the lutherie degree (it is a B.Sc).I can share the results of those experiments if you like- but it will take a bit of time to write out.

I'm afraid that 'my guitar is stable and doesn't need setting up' type of anecdotal evidence doesn't really stand up against the decades of research and writing on this topic.

I'm afraid my guitar is indiputable too. I'm not an idiot or a newbie, and I'm sorry my anecdote didn't "stand up".

Yeah, right.

Kebabkid · February 2014

Or for something inbetween, try D'addario's EXL120s - 9.5-44.

I put these on my Strat and PRS and neither needed adjustment.

viz · February 2014

I think the main variable here is what Octatonic said which I think is spot on. One guitarist's "plays like butter" may be another guitarist's "unplayable", and seeing as we're not using a scientific approach to comparison, it's impossible to quantify what we're talking about. I have rather a forgiving attitude to set-ups probably because all my guitars are different anyway and have never been given a proper MOT, and I also have a very sloppy and inaccurate playing style that doesn't warrant finely-tuned setups anyway - that's not to say that my playing wouldn't benefit from a beautifully set up guitar, but that I'm generally ok with a high action, or even a bit of fret buzz. On acoustics I quite like that string rattle when the strings are struck aggressively, and on electrics I generally have the tubescreamer set to 11 and it doesn't give a toss about fret buzz, it just sustains the note anyway

I also think Mike it could just well be that your ESP's neck moves more than the others, or that it had a lower action to start with. That's another variable we don't know about. Anyway I'm sure you'll get it to your liking.

It'd be interesting to get some gauges and tools and get into the finer details of the craft some day.

mike_l · February 2014

viz said:

I also have a very sloppy and inaccurate playing style

It'd be interesting to get some gauges and tools and get into the finer details of the craft some day.

First point of order, if your playing is "sloppy and innaccurate", then I wish mine was "sloppy and innaccurate".

Second, Once I'm happy with the set-ups on all my guitars, I shall put some measurements on here, and do a regular re-check and update, when I change the strings, so it'll be plain to see any differences, over the course of a few months.

viz · February 2014

That'd be interesting if you can post your results on 'ere, I look forward to that.

And thanks but it's a constant struggle to break away from a habitual and messy technique into something more reliable and disciplined, which I think will help me to plan and play more interesting stuff on the hoof. I've organised some tuition to help me with this, hopefully it will help.

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