Which Specs are Significant?

thegummy · December 2017

I'm trying to compare the specs of a PRS SE 245 and a Les Paul to see how likely it is that they could sound very similar with the same pickups.

These are the specs I've looked at:

PRS SE 245

Body - Mahogany with maple top
Frets - 22
Scale Length - 24.5"
Neck - Mahogany
Fretboard - Rosewood
Bridge - Stoptail

Gibson Les Paul

Body - Mahogany with maple top
Frets - 22
Scale Length - 24.75" (although, apparently it's really 24 and 9/16)
Neck - Mahogany
Fretboard - Rosewood
Bridge - Tune-O-Matic

Firstly, is there any significant specs I'm overlooking? I've left out pickups as they can be replaced.

The differences to me look like the very small (1.5mm) difference in scale length and the stoptail bridge rather than the TOM.

As an additional question - are these 2 differences enough to make them sound different even with the same pickups?

Legionreturns · December 2017

I've owned both, and they're not really very comparable at all sound wise. Ultimately I think only a Les Paul sounds like a Les Paul.

The PRS was lovely, but it sounded very different. I'd suggest trying them side by side and seeing what you prefer.

WezV · December 2017

They will definitely be in the same ballpark with the same Pickups

the PRS construction is more different than the spec sheet suggests. A full width tenon and stiffer neck with small headstock will account for some. Is the PRS a single cut?

Wraptails feel quite different to TOMs

Whitecat · December 2017

Body thickness, bridge assembly and pickups will all contribute to the Les Paul sounding way fatter than the PRS SE.

thegummy · December 2017

Legionreturns said:

I've owned both, and they're not really very comparable at all sound wise.

Is that not maybe down to the different pickups?

Surprised you'd say not comparable when they're so similar I'd have thought it must surely be in the same ballpark as WezV suggests. Problem in trying them out is that it wouldn't be possible to do so using the same pickups hence looking at the specs theoretically instead.

thegummy · December 2017

WezV said:

They will definitely be in the same ballpark with the same Pickups

the PRS construction is more different than the spec sheet suggests. A full width tenon and stiffer neck with small headstock will account for some. Is the PRS a single cut?

Wraptails feel quite different to TOMs

It is single cut, the body looks just like a Les Paul.

Forgive my ignorance but what is the tenon? Where the neck joins the body?

The headstock is actually one of the main reasons I'm looking for an alternative rather than just buying a Gibson, never thought it would have that much effect on tone but I suppose everything does to some degree.

WezV · December 2017

Whitecat said:

Body thickness, bridge assembly and pickups will all contribute to the Les Paul sounding way fatter than the PRS SE.

I don’t think it’s body thickness alone, but the ratio of maple/mahogany can be quite different because of it. That affects stiffness more than just making it thicker

WezV · December 2017

thegummy said:

WezV said:

They will definitely be in the same ballpark with the same Pickups

the PRS construction is more different than the spec sheet suggests. A full width tenon and stiffer neck with small headstock will account for some. Is the PRS a single cut?

Wraptails feel quite different to TOMs

It is single cut, the body looks just like a Les Paul.

Forgive my ignorance but what is the tenon? Where the neck joins the body?

The headstock is actually one of the main reasons I'm looking for an alternative rather than just buying a Gibson, never thought it would have that much effect on tone but I suppose everything does to some degree.

It’s s personal belief based on experience, others are free to disagree.

It’s the overal neck stiffness I believe has an affect, the size of the vibrating paddle on the end affects this

rico · December 2017

The specs that matter to me are the neck profile, neck width, fret size and fingerboard radius.

Pickups, hardware etc can be changed to suit but if the above aren’t right, I won’t enjoy playing it.

ICBM · December 2017

Neck size and shape is fairly critcal to me. Body size and where the neck joint is, and where the front strap button is in relation to the neck, are also very important. Neck angle also matters.

It makes a huge difference even on apparently similar guitars. For example - Rickenbacker 330, perfect for me. Gibson ES335, all wrong to the point of being nearly unplayable.

57Deluxe · December 2017

X-Ray Specs

thegummy · December 2017

Would the differences in the neck make it more different to any les Paul than a slim tapered neck les Paul is to a lp with a 50s chunky neck?

Hope I've phrased that right...

stickyfiddle · December 2017

thegummy said:

Would the differences in the neck make it more different to any les Paul than a slim tapered neck les Paul is to a lp with a 50s chunky neck?

Hope I've phrased that right...

Yes. It makes much more of a difference than you might think. I can get comfortable playing almost any body shape but if the neck's not right I'm not interested.

crunchman · December 2017

WezV said:

Whitecat said:

Body thickness, bridge assembly and pickups will all contribute to the Les Paul sounding way fatter than the PRS SE.

I don’t think it’s body thickness alone, but the ratio of maple/mahogany can be quite different because of it. That affects stiffness more than just making it thicker

I think you are right. The mahogany/maple ratio is very important. I think that was why I got rid of all my PRS (what would now be Core Series) in the end. They just didn't sound as good to me as a good Gibson. The top carve is very deep (much deeper than a Les Paul), so the maple is a lot thicker where the bridge is attached.

I think they have tried to fix this on the 594. The mahogany is thicker on that. I played one a while back and was very impressed. It sounded better than any of the PRS that I've had in the past.

thegummy · December 2017

stickyfiddle said:

thegummy said:

Would the differences in the neck make it more different to any les Paul than a slim tapered neck les Paul is to a lp with a 50s chunky neck?

Hope I've phrased that right...

Yes. It makes much more of a difference than you might think. I can get comfortable playing almost any body shape but if the neck's not right I'm not interested.

Sorry I should have made it more clear that I purely mean sound rather than feel.

Reason I ask this is because this thread convinced me to get a Gibson rather than a PRS but out of the 2 Les Paul's I fancy, the one that costs half the price of the other (even after factoring in new pickups) has a slim taper neck so wondering if that stops it sounding like a proper classic les Paul since the neck made such a difference on the PRS.

skunkwerx · December 2017

Think the tenon is a length of wood that joins the neck to the body?
Some longer, some shorter?

I think.

Neill · December 2017

According to the man himself (PRS) the nut material makes a big difference.

stickyfiddle · December 2017

thegummy said:

stickyfiddle said:

thegummy said:

Would the differences in the neck make it more different to any les Paul than a slim tapered neck les Paul is to a lp with a 50s chunky neck?

Hope I've phrased that right...

Yes. It makes much more of a difference than you might think. I can get comfortable playing almost any body shape but if the neck's not right I'm not interested.

Sorry I should have made it more clear that I purely mean sound rather than feel.

Reason I ask this is because this thread convinced me to get a Gibson rather than a PRS but out of the 2 Les Paul's I fancy, the one that costs half the price of the other (even after factoring in new pickups) has a slim taper neck so wondering if that stops it sounding like a proper classic les Paul since the neck made such a difference on the PRS.

It will make some amount of difference, because changing anything will change the resonance of a specific guitar, but it won't stop it sounding like a Les Paul.

WezV · December 2017

thegummy said:

stickyfiddle said:

thegummy said:

Would the differences in the neck make it more different to any les Paul than a slim tapered neck les Paul is to a lp with a 50s chunky neck?

Hope I've phrased that right...

Yes. It makes much more of a difference than you might think. I can get comfortable playing almost any body shape but if the neck's not right I'm not interested.

Sorry I should have made it more clear that I purely mean sound rather than feel.

Reason I ask this is because this thread convinced me to get a Gibson rather than a PRS but out of the 2 Les Paul's I fancy, the one that costs half the price of the other (even after factoring in new pickups) has a slim taper neck so wondering if that stops it sounding like a proper classic les Paul since the neck made such a difference on the PRS.

the profile is one factor that affects neck resonance.

tbh i don't think its the main one unless its an extreme profile- neck dimensions don't vary that much, 99% of guitars sit between 21-24mm thick, and a V profile is not much less stiff than a C one

the variation between pieces of wood can be just as much.... but you also have length, headstock size/angles, tuner weight, truss rod/reinforcement styles etc... its all the little differences together

WezV · December 2017

skunkwerx said:

Think the tenon is a length of wood that joins the neck to the body?
Some longer, some shorter?

I think.

it the part of the neck that goes into the body. longer tenon's have a bigger gluing surface. In theory this makes them stronger. this ignores the importance of fitting.

A short tenon is more than strong enough if well fitted.... you just have no way of knowing if its been well fitted on a finished guitar. Sadly gibson used the hidden nature of the joint to cut corners on some

Long tenon's have the advantage of being visible in the pickup route so you can see if its badly fitted

Gibson use a narrow tenon, its narrower than the width of the fretboard. PRS's tenon is full width, its the same width as the fretboard

A gibson Long tenon

Image: http://www.gibson.com/Images/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-Custom/Jimmy-Page-Number-Two-Les-Paul/VOS/Features-Images/Neck-n-HdStk-Joint-jpg.aspx?width=300&height=174

And PRS full width style

Image: http://www.crenshawweb.com/prs22/body97.jpg

Jalapeno · December 2017

If you want Gibson Mojo/Tone - get one.

PRS do McCarty models - which are supposed to be as close as a Gibson as they can with modern PRS manufacturing processes - Ted McCarty was with Gibson from 1950-1966 and responsible for a lot of the models and features still desirable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_McCarty

Ted McCarty was a mentor to Paul Reed Smith.

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