Are Bitsa’s Fake?

digitalscream · January 2018

JayGee said:

TTony said:

What's not allowable in any circumstance is selling items to which decals have been added which make the item appear to be something that it's not - typically that's putting a F decal on a non-F neck.

So, if somebody has a ‘F’ built neck complete with a factory applied ‘F’ decal (and serial number) originally supplied as part of a ‘F’ guitar built in a ‘F’ factory which has subsequently been attached to (say) an MJT body (along with a Gotoh bridge, Oil City pickups, generic electrics etc) by a bloke in a shed in Nottingham...?

I know this is kind of awkward, but I can’t help thinking that the way ‘F’ guitars are constructed along with a thriving third party market in components, and a fair amount of enthusiasm for swapping bits around to try to build the “perfect” whatevercaster makes this a long way from being an academic question. Short of taking the whole thing to pieces and submitting the major components to scrutiny by an expert I suspect that most buyers and sellers would be hard pushed to tell the difference between an upgraded/modified/repaired original and a well executed Frankencaster with a genuine neck...

In that case, it's considered a fake under UK law and thus...no. Quality of parts, and even the manufacturer's intent, are completely irrelevant.

You've actually answered the question as to why yourself. It's down to whether the average person on the street (not an expert) would be fooled into thinking it is what the decal on the headstock stays it is. If they would, then it's considered a counterfeit under UK law, regardless of whether the resulting instrument is of higher quality than the original or not.

maltingsaudio · January 2018

@TTony Thank you for that, the nub of my comment is this bit:

For the avoidance of doubt, if you've put a genuine Fender neck on a non-Fender body, our legal advice is that the guitar as a whole is still considered a fake and so we can't allow it to be advertised here as a complete guitar.

Which makes the point clear legally and therefor precludes me from advertising my guitar as a complete guitar .

Following on from this just to make it clear i wasn't intentionally stirring things was: what the hive mind actually thinks about actual bitsa's in the first place, not from a ponit of finacial gain just the fun of bolting things together and playing with them.

Fretwired · January 2018

maltingsaudio said:

Just seen @TTony pinned post at the top of the classified about fakes, now whilst I applaud the sentiment, I wondered what the collectives thoughts were with regards to bitsa’s and trading of them.

My thoughts are that they are an essential part of the guitar playing experience and the knocking together of stuff from the parts bin to see how it works is great fun. Doing this as deliberate forgery for gain is of course a no no.

I assume that should one want to sell one on here the correct procedure is list it as parts and only post pics of the disassembled parts?

Are bitsas fake?

It depends how they are described. People mod and upgrade guitars all the time - it's all about being honest in describing the guitar. There's no need to disassemble it into parts. A bitsa is only fake if a seller is trying to pass it off as a genuine Fender, Gibson, Ibanez etc. When I've sold such a guitar I have described it honestly with a list of what has been changed and the parts used - I've never had a problem.

TTony · January 2018

maltingsaudio said:

benmurray85 said:

Are partscasters fake? No.

Is knocking some parts parts together and sticking a trademarked logo on it immoral and illegal? Yes
Is as in my case, buying a "genuine" Charvel USA neck from a reputable parts dealer at a guitar show and sticking it on a parts bin S type body with a genuine wilkinson trem from a Carvin strat and some Brandoni pickups in a wd scratch plate with genuine sperzel machines immoral and illegal?

Is what you've done "immoral"? Not in my book.
Is what you've done "illegal"? Again, not in my book.

But, if you advertised the guitar for sale as a genuine Charvel, or in a way that someone could believe that it was a genuine Charvel, or in a way that a buyer could subsequently sell it on as a genuine Charvel, then that's illegal.

impmann · January 2018

digitalscream said:

JayGee said:

TTony said:

What's not allowable in any circumstance is selling items to which decals have been added which make the item appear to be something that it's not - typically that's putting a F decal on a non-F neck.

So, if somebody has a ‘F’ built neck complete with a factory applied ‘F’ decal (and serial number) originally supplied as part of a ‘F’ guitar built in a ‘F’ factory which has subsequently been attached to (say) an MJT body (along with a Gotoh bridge, Oil City pickups, generic electrics etc) by a bloke in a shed in Nottingham...?

I know this is kind of awkward, but I can’t help thinking that the way ‘F’ guitars are constructed along with a thriving third party market in components, and a fair amount of enthusiasm for swapping bits around to try to build the “perfect” whatevercaster makes this a long way from being an academic question. Short of taking the whole thing to pieces and submitting the major components to scrutiny by an expert I suspect that most buyers and sellers would be hard pushed to tell the difference between an upgraded/modified/repaired original and a well executed Frankencaster with a genuine neck...

In that case, it's considered a fake under UK law and thus...no. Quality of parts, and even the manufacturer's intent, are completely irrelevant.

You've actually answered the question as to why yourself. It's down to whether the average person on the street (not an expert) would be fooled into thinking it is what the decal on the headstock stays it is. If they would, then it's considered a counterfeit under UK law, regardless of whether the resulting instrument is of higher quality than the original or not.

I'm not sure thats actually true - as it depends on how it is being sold.

If a neck has a Fender decal on it applied by the factory (being a genuine Fender neck), bolting it onto another body does not change its origin. Therefore the decal does not need to be removed. Its not a fake *NECK*.

If you subsequently pass it off as a genuine Fender *guitar* then that is a fake and illegal. If it is sold as a partcaster with a Fender neck (with decals) then that is fine.

digitalscream · January 2018

impmann said:

digitalscream said:

JayGee said:

TTony said:

What's not allowable in any circumstance is selling items to which decals have been added which make the item appear to be something that it's not - typically that's putting a F decal on a non-F neck.

So, if somebody has a ‘F’ built neck complete with a factory applied ‘F’ decal (and serial number) originally supplied as part of a ‘F’ guitar built in a ‘F’ factory which has subsequently been attached to (say) an MJT body (along with a Gotoh bridge, Oil City pickups, generic electrics etc) by a bloke in a shed in Nottingham...?

I know this is kind of awkward, but I can’t help thinking that the way ‘F’ guitars are constructed along with a thriving third party market in components, and a fair amount of enthusiasm for swapping bits around to try to build the “perfect” whatevercaster makes this a long way from being an academic question. Short of taking the whole thing to pieces and submitting the major components to scrutiny by an expert I suspect that most buyers and sellers would be hard pushed to tell the difference between an upgraded/modified/repaired original and a well executed Frankencaster with a genuine neck...

In that case, it's considered a fake under UK law and thus...no. Quality of parts, and even the manufacturer's intent, are completely irrelevant.

You've actually answered the question as to why yourself. It's down to whether the average person on the street (not an expert) would be fooled into thinking it is what the decal on the headstock stays it is. If they would, then it's considered a counterfeit under UK law, regardless of whether the resulting instrument is of higher quality than the original or not.

I'm not sure thats actually true - as it depends on how it is being sold.

If a neck has a Fender decal on it applied by the factory (being a genuine Fender neck), bolting it onto another body does not change its origin. Therefore the decal does not need to be removed. Its not a fake *NECK*.

If you subsequently pass it off as a genuine Fender *guitar* then that is a fake and illegal. If it is sold as a partcaster with a Fender neck (with decals) then that is fine.

No, you're wrong. If a subsequent seller can pass off the entire guitar as a genuine guitar without changing anything, then it's also a fake. It's irrelevant as to whether you're honest about it or not.

TTony · January 2018

Fretwired said:

Are bitsas fake?

It depends how they are described. People mod and upgrade guitars all the time - it's all about being honest in describing the guitar.

Unfortunately, that's not true.

You can (honestly) describe it as a fake, that doesn't mean that you can then (legally) sell it as a fake.

You can be honest and say that you put a F logo on a neck and that it's not a real F neck - but that disclaimer doesn't mean that you can then sell it (here) with that description, or photos that show it.

ICBM · January 2018

Most of it is quite clear, if people are honest with themselves. To me the only difficult questions are:

Is a guitar made of all completely genuine Fender parts but which did not leave the factory together, a fake? Technically, yes - because it wasn't assembled by Fender and so is not a 'Fender product'. But it's not really "fake" either because all the parts are genuine... so what is it? Is it a "Fender partscaster", or some other term?

What proportion of, and what, parts need to be changed before a guitar is considered a fake? Obviously if you change just the neck and put a fake decal on the new one then it is. If you change everything apart from the genuine neck, it is. But what if you change everything apart from the body and neck? Should it be described as a partscaster, or a Fender with (listed) changed parts?

impmann · January 2018

digitalscream said:

impmann said:

digitalscream said:

JayGee said:

TTony said:

What's not allowable in any circumstance is selling items to which decals have been added which make the item appear to be something that it's not - typically that's putting a F decal on a non-F neck.

So, if somebody has a ‘F’ built neck complete with a factory applied ‘F’ decal (and serial number) originally supplied as part of a ‘F’ guitar built in a ‘F’ factory which has subsequently been attached to (say) an MJT body (along with a Gotoh bridge, Oil City pickups, generic electrics etc) by a bloke in a shed in Nottingham...?

I know this is kind of awkward, but I can’t help thinking that the way ‘F’ guitars are constructed along with a thriving third party market in components, and a fair amount of enthusiasm for swapping bits around to try to build the “perfect” whatevercaster makes this a long way from being an academic question. Short of taking the whole thing to pieces and submitting the major components to scrutiny by an expert I suspect that most buyers and sellers would be hard pushed to tell the difference between an upgraded/modified/repaired original and a well executed Frankencaster with a genuine neck...

In that case, it's considered a fake under UK law and thus...no. Quality of parts, and even the manufacturer's intent, are completely irrelevant.

You've actually answered the question as to why yourself. It's down to whether the average person on the street (not an expert) would be fooled into thinking it is what the decal on the headstock stays it is. If they would, then it's considered a counterfeit under UK law, regardless of whether the resulting instrument is of higher quality than the original or not.

I'm not sure thats actually true - as it depends on how it is being sold.

If a neck has a Fender decal on it applied by the factory (being a genuine Fender neck), bolting it onto another body does not change its origin. Therefore the decal does not need to be removed. Its not a fake *NECK*.

If you subsequently pass it off as a genuine Fender *guitar* then that is a fake and illegal. If it is sold as a partcaster with a Fender neck (with decals) then that is fine.

No, you're wrong. If a subsequent seller can pass off the entire guitar as a genuine guitar without changing anything, then it's also a fake. It's irrelevant as to whether you're honest about it or not.

I'm going to pick up my popcorn again, and stop arguing - but I've yet to hear of ANYONE being prosecuted in that manner, so I'd suggest that line is a little... theoretical rather than practical.

As I said above, you'll get more money parting it out - and you won't get grief. :-)

digitalscream · January 2018

ICBM said:

Most of it is quite clear, if people are honest with themselves. To me the only difficult questions are:

Is a guitar made of all completely genuine Fender parts but which did not leave the factory together, a fake? Technically, yes - because it wasn't assembled by Fender and so is not a 'Fender product'. But it's not really "fake" either because all the parts are genuine... so what is it? Is it a "Fender partscaster", or some other term?

Yes - it's a fake because the serial number on the neck (and any other description of the guitar it was originally attached to) no longer describes the guitar being sold.

ICBM said:

What proportion of, and what, parts need to be changed before a guitar is considered a fake? Obviously if you change just the neck and put a fake decal on the new one then it is. If you change everything apart from the genuine neck, it is. But what if you change everything apart from the body and neck? Should it be described as a partscaster, or a Fender with (listed) changed parts?

That's the sorta-kinda grey area, but if you consider what are "commonly upgraded parts", that basically includes everything other than the body and neck. So...in that case, it'd be a genuine Fender with upgrades.

digitalscream · January 2018

impmann said:

digitalscream said:

impmann said:
I'm not sure thats actually true - as it depends on how it is being sold.

If a neck has a Fender decal on it applied by the factory (being a genuine Fender neck), bolting it onto another body does not change its origin. Therefore the decal does not need to be removed. Its not a fake *NECK*.

If you subsequently pass it off as a genuine Fender *guitar* then that is a fake and illegal. If it is sold as a partcaster with a Fender neck (with decals) then that is fine.

No, you're wrong. If a subsequent seller can pass off the entire guitar as a genuine guitar without changing anything, then it's also a fake. It's irrelevant as to whether you're honest about it or not.

I'm going to pick up my popcorn again, and stop arguing - but I've yet to hear of ANYONE being prosecuted in that manner, so I'd suggest that line is a little... theoretical rather than practical.

As I said above, you'll get more money parting it out - and you won't get grief. :-)

Accepting that you're now chewing your popcorn (

), but for the sake of clarity...that argument (essentially "You'll probably get away with it") also gets used a lot. Yeah, the potential consequences for an individual doing so are probably negligible.

However, the consequences for us as a site - and me in particular, since I only care about myself (

) - are much greater, because we could be seen as facilitating the sale of many such counterfeits (again, as defined by UK law). That's not negligible by any stretch; all it would take is one person to buy a guitar that they're subsequently not happy with and report it to Action Fraud (or whichever body is responsible this week), thus triggering a brief investigation which finds that our rules allow the sales of such things and...we're toast.

Philly_Q · January 2018

ICBM said:

Is a guitar made of all completely genuine Fender parts but which did not leave the factory together, a fake? Technically, yes - because it wasn't assembled by Fender and so is not a 'Fender product'. But it's not really "fake" either because all the parts are genuine... so what is it? Is it a "Fender partscaster", or some other term?

I've got a Tele like that, all the parts are genuine Fender (apart from the pickups, but I could easily change them to Fender ones) but none of them left the factory together. The bits are all Fender USA, all of a similar age, but it's not a combination of parts which was ever an actual model.

I think if I was going to sell it I'd bypass the whole "fake" question by parting it out again.

TTony · January 2018

And I'm going to quote that to double the chances of it being read ...

digitalscream said:

However, the consequences for us as a site - and me in particular, since I only care about myself ( ) - are much greater, because we could be seen as facilitating the sale of many such counterfeits (again, as defined by UK law). That's not negligible by any stretch; all it would take is one person to buy a guitar that they're subsequently not happy with and report it to Action Fraud (or whichever body is responsible this week), thus triggering a brief investigation which finds that our rules allow the sales of such things and...we're toast.

... because that's all that matters.

digitalscream · January 2018

I find it amusing that in any normal discussion of site rules, Tony and I usually get a ton of Wisdoms and Wows. Only one between us in this thread, though (and that was given my me on one of Tony's posts), 'cos our answers ain't that popular

maltingsaudio · January 2018

TTony said:

And I'm going to quote that to double the chances of it being read ...

digitalscream said:

However, the consequences for us as a site - and me in particular, since I only care about myself ( ) - are much greater, because we could be seen as facilitating the sale of many such counterfeits (again, as defined by UK law). That's not negligible by any stretch; all it would take is one person to buy a guitar that they're subsequently not happy with and report it to Action Fraud (or whichever body is responsible this week), thus triggering a brief investigation which finds that our rules allow the sales of such things and...we're toast.

... because that's all that matters.

@TTony ; I thought as a coda to this thread would put up some photos of my bitsa, if its not allowed please feel free to delete it

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/121713/my-bitsa#latest

digitalscream · January 2018

maltingsaudio said:

TTony said:

And I'm going to quote that to double the chances of it being read ...

digitalscream said:

However, the consequences for us as a site - and me in particular, since I only care about myself ( ) - are much greater, because we could be seen as facilitating the sale of many such counterfeits (again, as defined by UK law). That's not negligible by any stretch; all it would take is one person to buy a guitar that they're subsequently not happy with and report it to Action Fraud (or whichever body is responsible this week), thus triggering a brief investigation which finds that our rules allow the sales of such things and...we're toast.

... because that's all that matters.

I thought as a coda to this thread would put up some photos of my bitsa, if its not allowed please feel free to delete it

Go ahead - bitsas themselves aren't illegal. It's the sale of offending guitars (not all bitsas are considered fake) that's verboten.

siraxeman · January 2018

its really really real.......

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii232/tacochild1/headstock.jpg

impmann · January 2018

digitalscream said:

impmann said:

digitalscream said:

impmann said:
I'm not sure thats actually true - as it depends on how it is being sold.

If a neck has a Fender decal on it applied by the factory (being a genuine Fender neck), bolting it onto another body does not change its origin. Therefore the decal does not need to be removed. Its not a fake *NECK*.

If you subsequently pass it off as a genuine Fender *guitar* then that is a fake and illegal. If it is sold as a partcaster with a Fender neck (with decals) then that is fine.

No, you're wrong. If a subsequent seller can pass off the entire guitar as a genuine guitar without changing anything, then it's also a fake. It's irrelevant as to whether you're honest about it or not.

I'm going to pick up my popcorn again, and stop arguing - but I've yet to hear of ANYONE being prosecuted in that manner, so I'd suggest that line is a little... theoretical rather than practical.

As I said above, you'll get more money parting it out - and you won't get grief. :-)

Accepting that you're now chewing your popcorn ( ), but for the sake of clarity...that argument (essentially "You'll probably get away with it") also gets used a lot. Yeah, the potential consequences for an individual doing so are probably negligible.

However, the consequences for us as a site - and me in particular, since I only care about myself ( ) - are much greater, because we could be seen as facilitating the sale of many such counterfeits (again, as defined by UK law). That's not negligible by any stretch; all it would take is one person to buy a guitar that they're subsequently not happy with and report it to Action Fraud (or whichever body is responsible this week), thus triggering a brief investigation which finds that our rules allow the sales of such things and...we're toast.

I totally accept that, chap.

Something to consider...

Back in the day, I worked for a shop that were Fender main dealers. In 1994 we were sent a batch of four US Standard Strats where the necks were substandard - two twisted and the other two had finish delamination. This (at the time) was fairly common on US Strats - if you look at the s/h ones with maple necks from this period you'll know what I mean.
Anyway - we phoned Arbiter (Fender Importer at the time) to return them. They suggested four new necks could be sent direct from Fender US and I could bolt them on, set them up and sell them. There was a small discount offered and frankly it was less grief so we said yes.
All four of the original guitars had maple fretboards - the replacements were rosewood boarded. I fitted them (and disposed of the bad maple ones). Therefore are these guitars "fakes"? Bear in mind they were sold by a Fender main dealer, supported by the distributor and facilitated by the manufacturer...
Believe me... this is NOT an isolated incident in guitar retail or manufacturing. For example: I can think of literally 100s of a particular guitar I was involved of the rework of whereby replacement necks were sent over by the contract manufacturer to a warehouse in the Midlands. The necks were fitted by unskilled temporary workers (trained to do a task - its not rocket science) and then set up by a group of techs lead by me. The guitars were sent back to the warehouse they came from to be sold as new guitars (they hadn't been sold previously, for clarity). Those instruments all had serial numbers... on the necks. So are they 'fakes'? Of course they aren't... but they weren't assembled in the factory they originated from and they certainly weren't assembled by 'luthiers' employed by the company on the headstocks!!!
Genuinely, if you work inside the industry you get a very different perspective on what constitutes "original". I guarantee that examples of this pass through the sales pages of this site all the time...

Its NEVER black and white. :-)

digitalscream · January 2018

impmann said:

Its NEVER black and white. :-)

And yet, for the purposes of a site like this staying within the law in order to continue operating, it has to be black-and-white. Therefore, we've made it so

TTony · January 2018

impmann said:

All four of the original guitars had maple fretboards - the replacements were rosewood boarded. I fitted them (and disposed of the bad maple ones). Therefore are these guitars "fakes"? Bear in mind they were sold by a Fender main dealer, supported by the distributor and facilitated by the manufacturer...

In that situation, we'd have no way of knowing that the guitar wasn't original-as-left-the-factory spec, and I doubt whether anyone else would be able to tell either.

As we have no way of knowing, we'd have no reason for not allowing the sale here.

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