2 Les Paul's, strung the same - why is one tighter than the other??

welshboyo · August 2018

Ok..

88 Standard and a 79 Custom - both have very similar actions, both are strung with 10-46, however the Custom feels a lot tighter than the Standard?

I have tried raising the tailpiece on the Custom to see if that helped - it did somewhat but the Standard still felt slinkier.

I have now dropped to 9's on the Custom and it's now almost gone the other way where it's a little too bendy now!!

So, why do 2 guitars with the same scale length with the same action etc etc feel completely different?

guitars4you · August 2018

different size frets maybe !!!

also ebony board v rosewood - not sure why but it does feel a touch different - bit like the feel of maple v rosewood on a Strat

mbe · August 2018

Is headstock angle same?

shugz · August 2018

Neck relief the same on both? Could be worth checking that.

richardhomer · August 2018

My money would be on fret height as suggested by @guitars4you - typically Customs have lower frets, so more of your fingertip touches the fingerboard, ergo more friction....

welshboyo · August 2018

guitars4you said:

different size frets maybe !!!

also ebony board v rosewood - not sure why but it does feel a touch different - bit like the feel of maple v rosewood on a Strat

mbe said:

Is headstock angle same?

I did wonder about the Ebony vs Rosewood thing and the frets but their are markedly different..

Headstock angle I'm not sure about but I would imagine they are as they are different eras.

guitars4you · August 2018

welshboyo said:

guitars4you said:

different size frets maybe !!!

also ebony board v rosewood - not sure why but it does feel a touch different - bit like the feel of maple v rosewood on a Strat

mbe said:

Is headstock angle same?

I did wonder about the Ebony vs Rosewood thing and the frets but their are markedly different..

Headstock angle I'm not sure about but I would imagine they are as they are different eras.

just my opinion and others will agree and/or disagree - Nearly every time I've played such an LP Custom and LP Standard from the 70's, 80's and 90's era, that has been re-fretted with something like 6100 or 6150 frets and it feels far better - IMO - more slick and easier to handle

Gassage · August 2018

Intonation and truss rod differences make more of a diff than you'd believe.

Funkfingers · August 2018

In addition to the previous suggestions;

Neck stiffness
Neck pitch angle
Break angle over nut to machineheads
Number of turns of string you have around the machinehead posts.
How well the nut slots have been fettled. (Only affects resistance to string bending.)
Different string brands or construction. (Core to wrap ratio will affect tension.)

Paul_C · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

In addition to the previous suggestions;
Different string brands or construction. (Core to wrap ratio will affect tension.)

Even two sets of say, 10s made by the same brand could be different enough from each other for you to notice.

If you took 100 sets of 10s and measured the high E with a decent vernier caliper you might find anything from close to .009 to not far from .011 at the extremes and plenty that were .0095 or .0105.

TheMarlin · August 2018

Are the bridges different. Something like a tension bar bigsby will make the strings feel stiffer.

FelineGuitars · August 2018

There are only 2 things that should affect it (assuming the actual action is identical on both guitars)

Headstock break angle - this can't be changed

Bridge break angle - adjustable by raising or lowering the tailpieces

If the differential in height between bridge and tailpiece is the same then the tension should be the same.

WezV · August 2018

FelineGuitars said:

There are only 2 things that should affect it (assuming the actual action is identical on both guitars)
Headstock break angle - this can't be changed
Bridge break angle - adjustable by raising or lowering the tailpieces
If the differential in height between bridge and tailpiece is the same then the tension should be the same.

Just to be pedantic, it’s the break angle of the string over the nut and bridge which alter the perception of the tension

Headstock thickness, tuner shaft length and the number of string wraps on the post will affect the break angle of the string over the nut. Headstock break angle can be tweaked slightly even if the angles built in the wood can’t be changed.

StuartMac290 · August 2018

In my experience 9 times out of 10 this comes down to the fret height and the neck relief

photek · August 2018

It’s because you fingers are knackered from picking up the Custom.

skunkwerx · August 2018

I heard that the length after the nut to machineheads, and length after the bridge to tailpiece can affect or be percieved to affect the feel/tension.

Which strings felt too slinky when you went to .9’s? Or was it all of them?
If the G, B, E strings felt ok but the lower 3 felt too slack, then a hybrid set of .9 - 46’s may be a better shout. Mixing the best of both worlds. I love em!

Frets could play a role like others have said. I know I find it easier to bend when I can get right under a string to bend, and I’m used to this on xj frets which allow it.

On my fender tele, with medium jumbo’s, whilst the string tension doesnt feel wildly different, the general feel of bending does, as it has a lower action too, so less room between string and board to get my fingers under.

No problem, but I think it means I have to concentrate harder, probably play a bit better etc, which to lazy fingers with ingrained habits and muscle memory, is a lot more taxing. Either I tire quicker, or simply adjusting angles slightly for better technique probably uses more energy or isnt what I’m used to so feels like its harder.

Could be a bit of finger drag going on too.

WezV · August 2018

skunkwerx said:

I heard that the length after the nut to machineheads, and length after the bridge to tailpiece can affect or be percieved to affect the feel/tension

It is the way you perceive tension... the same string on the same scale length tuned to the same note will have the exact same tension

That goes out the window a bit once you start playing. Bend a string and the additional force is spread out across the whole string length, not just the playing length. Lower break angles at nut and bridge increase this affect, higher ones decrease it. The length of string either side plays a role too.

welshboyo · August 2018

FelineGuitars said:

There are only 2 things that should affect it (assuming the actual action is identical on both guitars)
Headstock break angle - this can't be changed
Bridge break angle - adjustable by raising or lowering the tailpieces
If the differential in height between bridge and tailpiece is the same then the tension should be the same.

So, tailpiece height or more so the lengthy t'internet wisdoms around it being slammed down to the body - how much does this affect things? I had the tailpiece way up on the Custom on 10's to try and ease the tension a little - I didn't feel or hear any difference in tone/sustain but I was worried at how high it was and how much stress that was then giving the posts..

Nut is an interesting one as I've been threatening a while to get the nut sorted on it as it needs some work (its just old and well used) and I'm now wondering if that is a factor here..

Tech time methinks..

WezV · August 2018

Tailpiece height is an interesting one. I have seen it said before that the correct height is the point the break angle matches the nut end... that seems a bit OCD to me

it may be preferential from some idea of balanced tension, but I think there is a clear tonal improvement from having it decked tight which overrides that for me

impmann · August 2018

Can I ask what may seem a dumb question?

Why is this a problem?

skunkwerx · August 2018

WezV said:

skunkwerx said:

I heard that the length after the nut to machineheads, and length after the bridge to tailpiece can affect or be percieved to affect the feel/tension

It is the way you perceive tension... the same string on the same scale length tuned to the same note will have the exact same tension

That goes out the window a bit once you start playing. Bend a string and the additional force is spread out across the whole string length, not just the playing length. Lower break angles at nut and bridge increase this affect, higher ones decrease it. The length of string either side plays a role too.

Ahh, cheers bud!

Twas something I read briefly once and never actually found out more on, til just now

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2 Les Paul's, strung the same - why is one tighter than the other??

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