What a surprise! Hillsborough cop charges dropped.

VimFuego · August 2018

my post was in reference to your faith in the system comment. See my edit.

VimFuego · August 2018

"the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

We should never blindly trust the system

Funkfingers · August 2018

heavyrocker said:

You do realise it was the police that caused the disaster in the first place

I agree that a combination of indifferent police crowd control tactics and corrupt ticket selling created the situation.

Bridgehouse said:
The hillsborough campaign have maintained a hugely dignified and honourable stance with no pitchforks to denegrate their superb work. Our justice system needs to retain and match their very high standards

I agree with this too but there is culpability on both sides.

There is one bald and inconvenient truth about which the campaigners seem to have a mental block. Many of the victims were crushed by OTHER FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS. This fact seems to have become - literally - unspeakable. It must be a tough thing to accept. It is usually easier to blame an "out" group rather than one's own immediate social circle.

Thus, there are cases to answer for both negligence on the part of the police and individual instances of inadvertent unlawful killing.

There is no easy answer. Even if there were, you can be certain that somebody somewhere wouldn't like it.

heavyrocker · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

There is one bald and inconvenient truth about which the campaigners seem to have a mental block. Many of the victims were crushed by OTHER FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS. This fact seems to have become - literally - unspeakable. It must be a tough thing to accept. It is usually easier to blame an "out" group rather than one's own immediate social circle.

Seriously? “Many of the victims were crushed by other football supporters”. THEY ALL WERE. But that fact alone doesn’t make them culpable.

Do you know anything about crowd control? The people flooding into the stand had no idea what was happening. Once they did realise it was too late.

VimFuego · August 2018

should be pointed out they were not killed by other football fans, they were killed by people. Human beings who panicked and acted instinctively to an extreme pressure event.It is how this event happened and what caused it that is important.

blueskunk · August 2018

Dodgy handshake club

Bridgehouse · August 2018

VimFuego said:

my post was in reference to your faith in the system comment. See my edit.

It’s not really faith in the system. In some ways the system is fundamentally flawed. All systems are. There’s always going to be corruption were power, jobs and money are at stake.

If I have come across as having a faith in the system that’s blind, or just accepting then that’s not the case.

There isn’t really a better way of doing it. If you have a system and introduce humans there is always going to be the chance that it will be corrupted - that’s human nature.

My issue with the way the thread was potentially going was the fact that assuming corruption at all stages of the system, at all points in time and at all stages is dangerous. Be cautious and have checks and balances in place - but don’t assume that every single bit of it is corrupt for fear of introducing a state which effectively rules out the chance of justice.

The fact that the families have got to this point shows that the system can be influenced and changed (even temporarily) to produce a Just result. If we assume the system is always corrupt we will end up never being satisfied that justice is done until every permutation of what could have been the truth has been tested, and punishments handed out “just in case”

VimFuego · August 2018

"Yes, that’s true. But similar to the other miscarriages of justice like the Bham 6 or Guildford 4 you have to put some faith in the system when it tries to rectify those mistakes."

what you meant I don't know, I can only go by your words.

"My issue with the way the thread was potentially going was the fact that assuming corruption at all stages of the system, at all points in time and at all stages is dangerous" hmmm, heavy on the hyperbole here. And again, no one actually said that.

Bridgehouse · August 2018

VimFuego said:

"Yes, that’s true. But similar to the other miscarriages of justice like the Bham 6 or Guildford 4 you have to put some faith in the system when it tries to rectify those mistakes."

what you meant I don't know, I can only go by your words.

"My issue with the way the thread was potentially going was the fact that assuming corruption at all stages of the system, at all points in time and at all stages is dangerous" hmmm, heavy on the hyperbole here. And again, no one actually said that.

I’m expressing an opinion. My opinion is that you need to demonstrate some sort of faith at some point in the system otherwise we will never be able to say “yes, the system got it right this time”.

That point is in response to:

VimFuego said:

We should never blindly trust the system

And I didn’t mean blindly, but cautiously.

I’m really not sure why you are pushing so hard here - it’s just my opinion. Anyway, I’m done with this. I’ve explained what I think, and you are getting borderline passive aggressive about my opinion.

VimFuego · August 2018

ok, all I did was say you can't have faith in the system, which are the words you used. You are, OFC, allowed to express an opinion, and I am allowed to question that opinion. I haven't insulted you, nor taken your words out of context. I have not set up a strawman or any other logical fallacy, I have engaged with the words you used.

and saying someone is being passive aggressive doesn't make it true.In fact, saying someone is being passive aggressive when they're not is merely an attempt to silence them.

underdog · August 2018

Funkfingers said: t

heavyrocker said:

You do realise it was the police that caused the disaster in the first place

I agree that a combination of indifferent police crowd control tactics and corrupt ticket selling created the situation.

Bridgehouse said:
The hillsborough campaign have maintained a hugely dignified and honourable stance with no pitchforks to denegrate their superb work. Our justice system needs to retain and match their very high standards

I agree with this too but there is culpability on both sides.

There is one bald and inconvenient truth about which the campaigners seem to have a mental block. Many of the victims were crushed by OTHER FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS. This fact seems to have become - literally - unspeakable. It must be a tough thing to accept. It is usually easier to blame an "out" group rather than one's own immediate social circle.

Thus, there are cases to answer for both negligence on the part of the police and individual instances of inadvertent unlawful killing.

There is no easy answer. Even if there were, you can be certain that somebody somewhere wouldn't like it.

Wow there now, speaking as someone that lost someone there that day, thats utter bollocks.

The fans were allowed into that section when someone gave the order to open the gate and let them in. There was never enough room in there for all those fans, and those at the back pushing their way in to watch their team would have been completely unaware they were causing a crush that was killing fellow supporters hundreds of yards away.

Before you give an opinion as fact I'd suggest you do some research.

Edit : shame on whoever gave you a wisdom for that post too, children died that day and people are still believing the story told by the police. Don't tell me always the victims etc

Bridgehouse · August 2018

VimFuego said:

ok, all I did was say you can't have faith in the system, which are the words you used. You are, OFC, allowed to express an opinion, and I am allowed to question that opinion. I haven't insulted you, nor taken your words out of context. I have not set up a strawman or any other logical fallacy, I have engaged with the words you used.

and saying someone is being passive aggressive doesn't make it true.In fact, saying someone is being passive aggressive when they're not is merely an attempt to silence them.

I’m not attempting to silence you at all - I would never do that to anyone.

If anything, I’m interested to know how the balance of trust/mistrust works with an opinion contrary to my own. My passive aggressive comment was probably wrong - so apologies. If anything I meant that you were reiterating your point of view without either trying to understand mine or break it down and it came across as a “This is what you need to believe” as with the

VimFuego said:

We should never blindly trust the system

comment. Ok, I can accept that - but why not?

I’m not an unreasonable person. Neither do I usually resort to hyperbole. I’m genuinely interested to understand how a broadly sceptical view can equate to an endpoint - in this instance where we truly feel that justice has been served? For me, I’d interpret not blindly trusting the system as not really ever trusting a law courts judgement on the case of those brought to trial for this disaster.

I’m not looking to pick a fight. If anything the OP’s post annoyed me - it’s daily mail sensationalism with no substance, thought or proper argumentation. Ironic

VimFuego · August 2018

history teaches us that power, unchecked always becomes tyranny. We should always be sceptical of the state. We should not blindly trust the courts, or any other branch of government, and we don't. This is why we have the seperation of powers, ad why ultimately all branches of government answer to the people, that is the only place where power can reside. Government should have no power, only our permission to act in certain ways..
This case proves perfectly what happens when the executive, judiciary and the legislature act in cahoots with a complicit 4th estate, if it hadn't been for the tireless efforts of the families, this event would've been conveniently forgotten.

Bridgehouse · August 2018

VimFuego said:

history teaches us that power, unchecked always becomes tyranny. We should always be sceptical of the state. We should not blindly trust the courts, or any other branch of government, and we don't. This is why we have the seperation of powers, ad why ultimately all branches of government answer to the people, that is the only place where power can reside. Government should have no power, only our permission to act in certain ways..
This case proves perfectly what happens when the executive, judiciary and the legislature act in cahoots with a complicit 4th estate, if it hadn't been for the tireless efforts of the families, this event would've been conveniently forgotten.

We should discuss this in detail - I’m not sure anyone else would care....

I’m a History graduate and did a lot of the things you are talking about from many periods of history.

heavyrocker · August 2018

underdog said:

Wow there now, speaking as someone that lost someone there that day, thats utter bollocks.

The fans were allowed into that section when someone gave the order to open the gate and let them in. There was never enough room in there for all those fans, and those at the back pushing their way in to watch their team would have been completely unaware they were causing a crush that was killing fellow supporters hundreds of yards away.

Before you give an opinion as fact I'd suggest you do some research.

Edit : shame on whoever gave you a wisdom for that post too, children died that day and people are still believing the story told by the police. Don't tell me always the victims etc

Well said.

Bellycaster · August 2018

VimFuego said:

history teaches us that power, unchecked always becomes tyranny. We should always be sceptical of the state. We should not blindly trust the courts, or any other branch of government, and we don't. This is why we have the seperation of powers, ad why ultimately all branches of government answer to the people, that is the only place where power can reside. Government should have no power, only our permission to act in certain ways..
This case proves perfectly what happens when the executive, judiciary and the legislature act in cahoots with a complicit 4th estate, if it hadn't been for the tireless efforts of the families, this event would've been conveniently forgotten.

Yep....This ^

Fretwired · August 2018

underdog said:

The fans were allowed into that section when someone gave the order to open the gate and let them in. T

True but the police didn't have high tech control systems; they weren't really trained in crowd management; a large number of Liverpool fans arrived late - a policeman asked for the game to be delayed as he was worried by the large numbers of fans trying to get into the ground. His request was declined. A gate was opened, there was a stampede and the rest is history. What would have happened had the gate not been opened? Truth is there were too few police on duty that day and those in command weren't trained to deal with situations like this.

The police covered up what happened (fact) but it seems to me people have their minds made up that they were to blame - they need someone to blame. Your comment about 'there wasn't enough room' is correct in hindsight but did the police know it at the time? They weren't actually trained or experienced in crowd control. The design of the ground was flawed with fences and small gates - police didn't have keys to the gates which cost lives.

We have an impartial legal system - let the legal process take its course.

underdog · August 2018

Fretwired said:

underdog said:

The fans were allowed into that section when someone gave the order to open the gate and let them in. T

True but the police didn't have high tech control systems; they weren't really trained in crowd management; a large number of Liverpool fans arrived late - a policeman asked for the game to be delayed as he was worried by the large numbers of fans trying to get into the ground. His request was declined. A gate was opened, there was a stampede and the rest is history. What would have happened had the gate not been opened? Truth is there were too few police on duty that day and those in command weren't trained to deal with situations like this.

The police covered up what happened (fact) but it seems to me people have their minds made up that they were to blame - they need someone to blame. Your comment about 'there wasn't enough room' is correct in hindsight but did the police know it at the time? They weren't actually trained or experienced in crowd control. The design of the ground was flawed with fences and small gates - police didn't have keys to the gates which cost lives.

We have an impartial legal system - let the legal process take its course.

All pretty much sounds like the fans were blameless like I said then, and the police made mistake after mistake, along with the FA for even allowing the match to played at the stadium in the first place.

What followed was 2 decades of police, government and press collusion to blame the fans, calling them drunks, claiming they were looting the dead.

Then add in the fact the scores of ambulances that were prevented from going in to the stadium to help.

There's plenty of blame to go around here, I just don't see how it should be shared by the supporters.

Jalapeno · August 2018

underdog said:

What followed was 2 decades of police, government and press collusion to blame the fans, calling them drunks, claiming they were looting the dead.

The events at Hysel gave credence to all those lies sadly.

underdog · August 2018

Jalapeno said:

underdog said:

What followed was 2 decades of police, government and press collusion to blame the fans, calling them drunks, claiming they were looting the dead.
The events at Hysel gave credence to all those lies sadly.

That's ok then.

Edit: sorry was being a dick

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What a surprise! Hillsborough cop charges dropped.

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