"Shorter" scale length acoustic guitars

StanleyAccrington · October 2018

I have one cheapo acoustic guitar that I dust down occasionally and bang out a few chords on from time to time......but it has a 25.6 ish scalelength. I didn't realise that acoustics came with differing scalelengths when I bought it. Now I fancy getting right into acoustic playing and want to get a decent "shorter" scale length one.

Most acoustic specs do give scalelength now but I still find that some companies don't. Is anyone on here playing shorter scale acoustics or are willing to point me in the right direction.

ICBM · October 2018

Many (but not all) Gibsons use the 24-3/4" scale.

Any shorter than that and it will probably need to be a deliberately scaled-down guitar, like a Martin Dreadnought Junior (24").

Kilgore · October 2018

Pretty much all dreds come with a "long" scale length. It's often smaller bodied guitars: 00, parlour and "travel" guitars that come with a shorter scale.

StanleyAccrington · October 2018

ICBM said:

Many (but not all) Gibsons use the 24-3/4" scale.

Any shorter than that and it will probably need to be a deliberately scaled-down guitar, like a Martin Dreadnought Junior (24").

Thanks. And I think (most) Yamahas have a 25" scale. I've very recently ( about an hour ago) found out that nearly all 12 fret/the fret where the fingerboard meets the guitars body, are shorter scale. Maybe obvious to many on here.....but not me!

StanleyAccrington · October 2018

Kilgore said:

Pretty much all dreds come with a "long" scale length. It's often smaller bodied guitars: 00, parlour and "travel" guitars that come with a shorter scale.

Thanks bud. Suggestion/advice noted and appreciated.

AliGorie · October 2018

San - this long / short scale thing has always amused me - the difference between then is SO small - 1/2 an inch over 24.9' / 25.4( can some one work out the fret to fret difference).

E.G. I have played mandolin, banjo various cittern / bouzouki etc, and have NEVER had an issue with changing from one to the other - probably because I accepted they were markedly different s/l's and there was no alternatives.

In short if u can play a few notes on a mandolin 1'2 an inch shouldn't pose a problem - unless u'r not happy with the results - then u'll look elsewhere to address them.

Theres quite a few brands (including Yamaha and Eastman) that make 25 inch scale guitars - thats short scale in all but 1/2 an inch to me.

If it's the tension that is a difficulty - play with string gauges or go nylon.

jellyroll · October 2018

AliGorie said:

San - this long / short scale thing has always amused me - the difference between then is SO small - 1/2 an inch over 24.9' / 25.4( can some one work out the fret to fret difference).

Focus on this has always puzzled me too. 1/2 inch difference over 25 inches is around 2%. Does that mean there is a 2% (or 4% if its a squared thing?) difference in tension? Noticeable, I suppose, but not life-changing.....

jellyroll · October 2018

jellyroll said:

AliGorie said:

San - this long / short scale thing has always amused me - the difference between then is SO small - 1/2 an inch over 24.9' / 25.4( can some one work out the fret to fret difference).

Focus on this has always puzzled me too. 1/2 inch difference over 25 inches is around 2%. Does that mean there is a 2% (or 4% if its a squared thing?) difference in tension? Noticeable, I suppose, but not life-changing.....

So, Google tells me here

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Waves/string.html

...that the frequency of a string = Sq Root (T/(m/L))/2L, where:

T = Tension
M = Mass
L = Length

So, its a linear relationship between length and Tension. A decrease of 2% in length, gives a 2% decrease in tension....

mikesl · October 2018

Not quite sure why you've opted for a shorter-scale length but certainly you owe it to yourself to try out and compare the classic 25.5" Dreadnought D28 style (Martin) with the 24.3/4" (Gibson) before ruling either in or out, ideally you should of course have both!!. As a long-term Gibson J45 player there really is a noticeable difference in the tension and also the slope shoulder style and weight - tune down half a tone on the one you have, stick a capo on the first fret, set yourself away and you'll get the general idea.

Do not however ever overlook the importance of the woods/tones. Many shorter scales coming with Spruce Top and Mahogany Back & Sides as opposed to Rosewood (Indian) on the dreads. You'll soon work out what you and your ears are really after. In shorter scales and without laying out big money or compromising on body sizes, have a look at the Sigma J45 models (JM SG 45+) specs on sigma site (Guitar Guitar and other UK Stores). You might want to also have a look at the body sizes in 01/Parlour/Travel guitars that virtually guarantee a short scale but also a marked tonal difference due to the reduced body size - have a look at the Taylor GS Mini while you're out and about also. Enjoy the search and don't be rash or rushed!! All the best.

AliGorie · October 2018

hu ? - ok

I'm waiting for a suggestion from over the pond - that different tonewood combos noticeably affect string tension

Kilgore · October 2018

AliGorie said:

hu ? - ok
I'm waiting for a suggestion from over the pond - that different tonewood combos noticeably affect string tension

They haven't got the time. They're still arguing about V bracing and intonation.

crunchman · October 2018

It does make a difference. If you compare a Martin OOO28EC (the Clapton signature) to an OM28V they are different. Apart from cosmetics, the scale length is the only real difference between them. The Clapton will be a little easier to play, but the big difference is in the sound. It definitely sounds warmer than the OM. The OM has a bit more top end twang.

Scale length is also part of the reason Fender electrics seem to have more twang and bite than Gibsons. The construction and pickups play a part, but the scale length is also an important part of it and often overlooked. I think it's also part of the reason why a 25" scale PRS can't completely nail either Gibson or Fender tones.

ICBM · October 2018

crunchman said:
Scale length is also part of the reason Fender electrics seem to have more twang and bite than Gibsons. The construction and pickups play a part, but the scale length is also an important part of it and often overlooked. I think it's also part of the reason why a 25" scale PRS can't completely nail either Gibson or Fender tones.

I don't think so - the scale length *by itself* doesn't affect the tone. The only thing it changes is the string tension, which has a small bearing on the harmonic content, but very little. The basic physics of string vibration aren't changed.

It's all the other things that go with a change of scale length - even if the materials used are the same - which affect the tone.

The main reasons a PRS doesn't sound like a Fender or a Gibson are because most PRSs have mahogany necks not maple (big difference from Fender), the necks are a different length (big difference from both) and the neck joint is very different (even from Gibson). All these change the resonance of the neck.

On an acoustic the position of the bridge relative to the body and bracing is also changed, moving forward on a shorter scale if they both join at the 14th fret.

You can very easily prove how little scale length affects the tone... simply tune a Fender down to Eb and capo at the first fret. You will find that it still sounds like a Fender and not like a Gibson

.

crunchman · October 2018

ICBM said:

crunchman said:
Scale length is also part of the reason Fender electrics seem to have more twang and bite than Gibsons. The construction and pickups play a part, but the scale length is also an important part of it and often overlooked. I think it's also part of the reason why a 25" scale PRS can't completely nail either Gibson or Fender tones.

I don't think so - the scale length *by itself* doesn't affect the tone. The only thing it changes is the string tension, which has a small bearing on the harmonic content, but very little. The basic physics of string vibration aren't changed.

It's all the other things that go with a change of scale length - even if the materials used are the same - which affect the tone.

The main reasons a PRS doesn't sound like a Fender or a Gibson are because most PRSs have mahogany necks not maple (big difference from Fender), the necks are a different length (big difference from both) and the neck joint is very different (even from Gibson). All these change the resonance of the neck.

On an acoustic the position of the bridge relative to the body and bracing is also changed, moving forward on a shorter scale if they both join at the 14th fret.

You can very easily prove how little scale length affects the tone... simply tune a Fender down to Eb and capo at the first fret. You will find that it still sounds like a Fender and not like a Gibson .

Having said all that, the OOO28EC does sound different from the OM28V. Unless you think that the fake tan "aging toner" and the Eric Clapton signature inlay affect the tone, then it has to be down to the scale length and neck. The Clapton does have a bigger neck, but I don't think that on it's own would be enough. A fat necked Fender still sounds like a Fender, as does a thin necked one. The best Fender I've ever played was a 50's Tele with a shaved down neck that was miniscule.

I'm sure there are other OOOs and OMs in the Martin Catalogue that could prove the point one way or the other.

ICBM · October 2018

crunchman said:

Having said all that, the OOO28EC does sound different from the OM28V. Unless you think that the fake tan "aging toner" and the Eric Clapton signature inlay affect the tone, then it has to be down to the scale length and neck.

I'm sure there are other OOOs and OMs in the Martin Catalogue that could prove the point one way or the other.

The bridge position and bracing are different, so again you aren't only comparing the scale length.

The capo test is quite conclusive, and it puzzles me why people go on about scale length being the defining factor in guitar tone when you can disprove it so easily. For that matter you can capo an OM at the first fret and see if it sounds like a 000...

crunchman · October 2018

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Having said all that, the OOO28EC does sound different from the OM28V. Unless you think that the fake tan "aging toner" and the Eric Clapton signature inlay affect the tone, then it has to be down to the scale length and neck.

I'm sure there are other OOOs and OMs in the Martin Catalogue that could prove the point one way or the other.

The bridge position and bracing are different, so again you aren't only comparing the scale length.

The capo test is quite conclusive, and it puzzles me why people go on about scale length being the defining factor in guitar tone when you can disprove it so easily. For that matter you can capo an OM at the first fret and see if it sounds like a 000...

I was always under the impression that an OOO body and an OM body were identical. I just thought the neck was shorter on the OOO. Is that not the case?

ICBM · October 2018

crunchman said:

I was always under the impression that an OOO body and an OM body were identical. I just thought the neck was shorter on the OOO. Is that not the case?

They're identically-sized, yes - but that means the bridge is further forward on the 000, because they both have a 14th-fret neck joint, as well as the neck being shorter. The bracing is also different.

So you can't tell anything about whether the scale length *by itself* alters the tone or not.

But you can if you tune the OM down, capo at the first and see if it sounds anything like an 000, because you've effectively shortened the scale. (It will actually have an even shorter scale than a 000, in fact.)

AliGorie · October 2018

ICBM said:

They're identically-sized, yes - but that means the bridge is further forward on the 000, because they both have a 14th-fret neck joint, as well as the neck being shorter. The bracing is also different.

So you can't tell anything about whether the scale length *by itself* alters the tone or not.

at last - I am NOT alone.

Ya want the bridge wings (ends) to just lie over the lower legs of the X brace - like it ORIGINALLY evolved into in pre war Martins.

No matter 12 or 14 fret - a bit of thoughtful sizing & profiling of the braces also helps.

The EC 000's lower X runs under the ends of the bridge saddle - good for strumming but as someone said above u lose out on the higher partials by stiffening that area.

Images from 28 pages of Martin light bulb 'x-rays' + pictures =

https://umgf.com/martin-bracing-library-t847.html

this is what makes 'rm sing

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"Shorter" scale length acoustic guitars

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