Have modellers got too complicated?

NelsonP · October 2018

The top modellers these days seem to be capable of pretty much anything you can think of. They are incredibly well thought out to cover pretty much all use cases. But how much of that capability do you actually use in reality? Have they got too complex?

I find myself yearning for the simplicity of a 2 channel amp with a couple of pedals. But at the same time I also love the customisation that you can get with a modeller and the ability to have everything in one place.

It feels like the next big leap forward in modelling will be to make them simpler rather than more complex.

Imagine a modeller that only had 3 channels (e.g. Fender, Marshall, Mesa) - but all of them killer, and one (or maybe two) of the very best effects from each of Comp, OD, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Delay etc. All with a really intuitive and easy peasy user interface. Maybe such a thing exists already?

Thoughts?

hubobulous · October 2018

I use my Helix for ambient, rock and acoustic sets. The flexibility that it offers for different amps, effects chains, testing ideas out without need to buy many pedals and rewire a board, setting up quickly with a PA, changing many parameters with one expression pedal, plugging external pedals such as the Enzo, Freeze and H9 and portability make it the best piece of kit I've ever bought.

Its easy to think that because it offers all those effects and amps that you have to use them. Obviously you don't But even as a Fender, Marshall, Mesa unit, its so easy to programme that it would make it worth it for me.

builttospill · October 2018

I'm gassing hard for a helix stomp for live/direct to PA use rather than lug my amp/pedals around, but I'm worried about the UI, I've never felt comfortable with modellers, I really like the look of the new Headrush unit and it's touch screen UI.
I have very little patience and quite poor concentration/focus issues, and you may laugh! I struggled with my M13 for quite a few years, too much faffing around. I love individual pedals at my feet, a little tweaking here and I'm done, I prefer tweaking boss knobs I'm not even keen on tons of options on normal pedals and hate those little toggle switches, this is the reason for going all Boss recently, even my Memory Man has big knobs, I just prefer them.

guitarfishbay · October 2018

Nope.

As long as it’s laid out logically to give the most common controls first I’d rather have the option to go deeper when needed than not

Freebird · October 2018

The Kemper is a single channel device with a couple of FX pedals thrown in, although you can switch amp profiles if you are feeling adventurous.

EricTheWeary · October 2018

I think there are quite a few guitarists who just aren't interested in that level of complexity ( and obviously plenty who are). If you can work a smart phone or a laptop you can probably work a Helix but if plugging in your guitar is your escape from all those things...

The problem with the kind of set up as described by the OP is that someone else has made those choices for you. How many people own a Katana or a Black Star ID or other all in one packages and still use additional effects because they don't like the onboard choices.

My ideal would be something with a very simple interface but there is choice behind them. You get to choose your ideal ( modelled) rig and in use it's still like an amp and a few pedals. I guess some of the modelling stuff can be used like that, you just have to ignore all the bits you aren't using, but it's a psychological barrier to overcome. When I looked at the Helix FX I thought I could create an argument to own one but I didn't have much desire to own one, it was like looking at a hi tech dishwasher.

JamesOB1 · October 2018

The Roland Blues Cube is basically a simple modelling amp with 2 channels (only one channel on the ‘hot’ combo Version).

vonLayzonfon · October 2018

Sounds like you want a Fly Rig. Maybe not strictly a modeller but fits your description pretty closely.

Me, I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that I only use about 20% of the functionality of my Vox ToneLab and when it finally turns its toes up I'll replace it with a Helix/Headrush/GT100000/whatever and only use about 5% of that. It's nice to know the other 95% is there if I want it though.

octatonic · October 2018

Katana is pretty straight forward.

Check out the HX Stomp too.

richh · October 2018

When I had a Kemper I found it easy to use and very 'amp-like'. It is possible to spend hours fiddling in the menu system, which is a pain, but also easy to find one or two good amp models and just use it in a very straight forward way, which is what I did.

Teetonetal · October 2018

Nope.

The good ones can be as simple or complex as you require. The difficult bit is in making sure you don't go complex "just because you can"

rossyamaha · October 2018

Yes and no. The big problem is there are 2 different modelling customers. The one that wants everything and the one that wants a little bit. It's impossible to please both with one unit so most people offer everything. The big difference is it's ease of use.

An example I use a lot when training is a clinic I did a year or so ago. Guy comes in to look at Helix. The first thing I always do after establishing how they want to use it is to build their existing rig as a good reference point and to show how easy it is. His rig was an Ibanez Artist into a Marshall Bluesbreaker set a little dirty.

After I found this out I explained to him that maybe Helix wasn't the best choice. He disagreed. It sounded great, was portable, consistent and most importantly for him very easy to use.

Just because all these units are super versatile, doesn't mean you have to use it all but I appreciate there are people that don't want to spend money on stuff they won't use. Interestingly, a very misunderstood product is the THR100HD. Possible the most versatile amp I've ever played. It does everything but gives you options. Not too many. Just enough to find the sound you want without chopping and changing all the time. When you do change your mind, it's as simple as turning a couple of knobs and you have a new amp. But because it's a digital amp and has no presets or any of the stuff people are used to, it sort of doesn't make sense. The old Line 6 Duoverb was a similar thing.

Manufacturers, for the most part do listen and design what people want. Generally they want more. That's the sad truth. Maybe one day the market will demand a single switch stompbox that can load an amp model of your choosing and simply toggle between clean and dirty. The problem is then what does that look like.

You suddenly want Fender clean and Marshall dirt for example. But then you have to have multiple amp models. Then like your real amp, you need an fx loop. Then something to switch the loop on an off. Then you start adding pedals and I can go on and on. Before you know it, you have something that's big, difficult to trouble shoot, tap dancy etc etc. You think to yourself that you may as well have got a Helix/ Axe/ Kemper etc.

It's impossible to know what a guitar player wants. Not only do we all want different things, we want different things on an hourly basis. That thing called GAS. The modelling stuff takes some of that away and simply offers convenience. As far as complicated goes, thats up to the manufacturer. A product can be ultra versatile without being complicated (Helix). A product can also be ultra versatile but work very similar to gear we all grew up using and loving (THR100).

This turned into a long post. Sorry. But hopefully you get my thinking.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob · October 2018

I've considered something like the Atomic Ampli-Firebox for exactly what the OP describes. Set up a few good presets on the laptop for the sounds you'll actually use, stick onto your existing pedalboard, then XLR straight into PA with the cab sims. Very affordable, and about the size of a Big Muff. Unfortunately Anderton's are the sole suppliers so I've not been able try one out yet.

shuikit · October 2018

I recently got a Helix, the main thing that put me off getting a modeller in the past was that I don't want to be spending all my down going down menus and clicking a mouse, I do enough of all that at work! But had a play with a Helix and found it incredibly straight forward and easy to use with little, if any menus.

One of the great things about it is that it's as simple or as complex as you want to make it. When you look around at the forums you'll see people using all these complex signal paths with eq's and compressors all over the place etc... but if you don't want to do that, then just put an amp, a cab and a drive pedal in the chain then away you go. In fact when I first got the Helix, I pretty much replicated what I had pedals/amp wise on one preset, ignored the snapshots and just used it like a pedal ie one footswitch per pedal. But as I've used it more I tend to use a few more things. The learning curve can be steep if you want it to be, or if you just want to keep it simple you can.

p90fool · October 2018

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

I've considered something like the Atomic Ampli-Firebox for exactly what the OP describes. Set up a few good presets on the laptop for the sounds you'll actually use, stick onto your existing pedalboard, then XLR straight into PA with the cab sims. Very affordable, and about the size of a Big Muff. Unfortunately Anderton's are the sole suppliers so I've not been able try one out yet.

It looked like the perfect solution for me, so I bought one.
Unfortunately, not only did it sound like arse until I spend hours delving into menus on my Mac, but it died after six days (the day before its scheduled first gig) and I sent it back.

I was obviously unlucky in terms of hardware failure (though it doesn't seem to be that uncommon) but it didn't sound or feel natural enough to bother persevering with.

Definitely try before you buy.

vasselmeyer · October 2018

Sure there are some amps that aren't complicated and, by design or accident, sound great. Some modellers are also easy to set up. I have a Zoom G3 which I use direct to PA for gigs when space is at a premium and, frankly, it sounds fine as far as the audience are concerned. Then there are amps that are like this, which doesn't look simple to me:

Roland · October 2018

NelsonP said:

Imagine a modeller that only had 3 channels (e.g. Fender, Marshall, Mesa) - but all of them killer, and one (or maybe two) of the very best effects from each of Comp, OD, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Delay etc. All with a really intuitive and easy peasy user interface. Maybe such a thing exists already?

Thoughts?

Your idea of a killer amp tone probably isn’t the same as mine. If there were a “best” OD, or any other effect, then we wouldn’t see so many of them in the Classifieds.

rossyamaha said:

Yes and no. The big problem is there are 2 different modelling customers. The one that wants everything and the one that wants a little bit ... Just because all these units are super versatile, doesn't mean you have to use it all

That sums it up. No one uses everything in a modeller. We all use different bits of it. Some more than others.

FarleyUK · October 2018

One of the main reasons I sold my AX8 was because there were too many options. I loved to tweak the amp settings etc., but it got to the point where you just end up chasing your 'tone tail' - I was spending a lot more time tweaking than I was playing.

Moving to the Kemper (not a 'modeller' per se, I know) has meant I am now playing a lot more instead of tweaking (although that is there if I need to).

Jalapeno · October 2018

Only reason I'd get one is for specific presets. (Happy to pay for the add-ons)

dindude · October 2018

I think some people are good having lots of options and only using what they need.

I'm one who prefers limitations, I just prefer it when I feel I am sweating kit and really getting to know it, rather than scratching the surface and always wondering what else is out there.

I like the look of the Stomp but having glanced the manual the sheer amount of amps / effects models actually puts me off - it takes me 3 months to dial in a three-knob OD and get the best out of it!

Blueingreen · October 2018

I think it's inevitable with this kind of technology that the focus moves away from performance and towards user-friendliness. I remember before people started listening to music on computers when even the average Joe took an interest in hi fi reviews etc. When the ability to have 1000s of songs at your fingertips came along convenience quickly squeezed out pernicketiness about sound quality for most people.

Once a certain threshold of "good enough" sound (and varieties of sound) is reached, the market will be in making those sounds easily and quickly accessible.

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Have modellers got too complicated?

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