Lazy J20 and alternatives?

mattdavis · July 2019

Majorscale said:

mattdavis said:

brooom said:

I've always truly failed to understand the appeal of Lazy J amps.

Don’t worry. There are support groups I can signpost you to. They meet just after the deluded-lazy J-owner workshop finishes.

By coincidence I was with Jesse today getting my amp serviced and he was showing me the grounds in the units...

Yay for the grounds!

Modulus_Amps · July 2019

RiftAmps said:

If you see a mains powered appliance that does not carry the required markings like CE Marking, Rohs Marking, WEEE Marking, Serial Number, Manufacturer, supply voltage and type, etc etc then there are two possible reasons:

1 - The mnfr is not aware of the regulations and is selling their products anyway

2 - The mnfr is aware that their products are not built to the minimum regulations, and is selling their products anyway

I don’t know which scares me the most.

More reading here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-equipment-safety-regulations-2016

Well said without pointing fingers, I added to the description a little, people need to be more aware of these things when buying custom/boutique products of any type.

RiftAmps · July 2019

Modulus_Amps said:

RiftAmps said:

If you see a mains powered appliance that does not carry the required markings like CE Marking, Rohs Marking, WEEE Marking, Serial Number, Manufacturer, supply voltage and type, etc etc then there are two possible reasons:

1 - The mnfr is not aware of the regulations and is selling their products anyway

2 - The mnfr is aware that their products are not built to the minimum regulations, and is selling their products anyway

I don’t know which scares me the most.

More reading here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-equipment-safety-regulations-2016

Well said without pointing fingers, I added to the description a little, people need to be more aware of these things when buying custom/boutique products of any type.

Exactly. I think we (as a collective) should do more to educate people on what to look for when buying a custom made/boutique amp and what questions they could ask the mnfr to ensure they’re buying a safe, compliant piece of gear.

If you’re building and selling electrical appliances in the UK you have to be prepared to stand up in a Coroner’s Court and say with 100% confidence “my product did not cause those deaths, and here’s why...”

I wonder how many custom/boutique builders are that confident?

breezytele · July 2019

This is getting silly and straying off topic.

Hence to the OP, I’ll close by recommending you look for an amp that won’t electrocute you, burn you,
or be mentioned in a Coroner’s report, so obviously avoid Lazy J, and find something with a sticker.

( disclaimer, all my amps are Lazy Js ! )

Modulus_Amps · July 2019

breezytele said:

This is getting silly and straying off topic.

Hence to the OP, I’ll close by recommending you look for an amp that won’t electrocute you, burn you,
or be mentioned in a Coroner’s report, so obviously avoid Lazy J, and find something with a sticker.

( disclaimer, all my amps are Lazy Js ! )

It is a discussion about low cost alternatives, one way to make a product low cost is to cut corners on safety stuff, how is it off topic. you can buy low cost DIY amps on ebay that will sound close but will also not be built to current standards.

I have never seen a lazyJ, to comment on them, but I am sure any new LazyJ amp will have the markings?

jpfamps · July 2019

Sorry in advance if this post is quite long, and has meandered off topic.

I will re-iterate I really make an effort NOT to criticize specifically small builders (or indeed repairers) on the internet.

Firstly, this represents a massive conflict of interest on my behalf. I want the reputation of my business to depend on what we do, and not from trashing competitors.

Secondly, I could also be making criticism in a forum where the person being criticized is not aware of this, and thus can't respond. I think this is grossly unfair, although sadly a very modern phenomenon.

Thirdly, how does anyone know that I know what I am talking about? There are plenty of self-styled "experts" on internet fora, many of whom having achieved this status by telling people how good they are at their job (I'm always very wary in any work situation of people whose main topic of conversation is how good they are at there job and, even worse, how everyone else isn't). If I have been guilty of this in the past, I apologise sincerely; I consider self-righteousness as a most unappealing character trait, and certainly do not want come across as holier-than-thou.

Having said that, I am employed as a consultant by a UK amp manufacturer, and part of my work there has been to help steer products through approvals. I have read and digested the relevant areas of the regs, and have worked with two independent companies that do approvals, so I feel I have a reasonable handle on the process.

(Deep breath), in my opinion very few "boutique" amps on the market would meet the relevant regs (and I've worked or seen inside most of them). Indeed there are plenty of question marks even with gear from the major manufacturers. I'm currently working on US-made stereo rack valve amp that would, in my opinion, fail on at least 4 counts.

I add the caveat "in my opinion" because the regs aren't as explicit as you might imagine. This is largely because they need to cover a very wide spectrum of consumer products. To give an example, I remember having quite a long conversation with an engineer at an approvals company about his interpretation of the size and shape of holes in ventilation grills. The problem was there were in the transition between two sets of regs and whilst our product would pass the current set of regs as it was, it was equivocal whether it would pass the soon-to-be-introduced regs, which were in the revision stage. Thus it would be fine to manufacture as it was, but maybe not in future.

Getting products through approvals is expensive. As an example an OEM reverb PCB used in one product did not have the relevant flammability certification, so 2 samples of the PCB had to be provided for testing at a final cost of around £700 + VAT. This was in addition to the other safety approvals, which required a PCB revision for it to pass.

Approvals is also an on going process. Two examples: mains transformers need to be sent for approvals every year. This is why many manufacturers use the same transformers across several products. Secondly, manufacturing facilities need to undergo annual inspections. Both these procedures cost money.

Alternatively the transformers manufacturer may actually get their products approved, so the manufacturer doesn't have to. Hammond and (I think) Mercury Magnetics do this.

Many of the mains transformers I've seen with amps kits don't seem to have any approvals.

If you buy a product through a shop, then the distributor for that product is responsible for it having the correct approvals. If the shop deals directly with the manufacturer then they are themselves responsible. So for anyone importing amps from the US it's their responsibility as to whether that amps meet the correct regs.

Now, of course it would be almost certainly be uneconomic for any small manufacturer of amps to get their products through approvals. Approval cost have to be recouped. If you are making 1,000s of units, this will be a few pounds per unit. If you are making 10's of units it will add significantly to the cost, possibly to the point where you won't sell any.

Now, technically it is also unnecessary to have your goods inspected by the 3rd party approvals house. To sell electrical goods within the EU, the goods do not need to be tested, as you can self-certify that they conform with the regs.

The problem with self-certification, as with any self-regulation, is that just because it has the relevant markings on it (CE etc) or even a document saying that it meets the regulations, there is of course no guarantee that it does. For sure, you would certainly have more confidence if the product had been inspected by a 3rd party. I certainly would not rely on information I've garnered from an internet forum!

I'm not sure exactly what the legal position is here, however, I reckon it should not in anyway be incumbent on the consumer to have to investigate whether the product they are buying is safe to use! This is why we have consumer legislation.

And then you are relying on the QC of the company building the amp. Again I've been involved in a situation where QC has caused approvals problems.

What's the answer? I don't know, but if there was a way to make 3rd party approvals affordable for smaller builders that would be a step in right direction. Guitar amps are mature technology, so this should be achievable.

Ultimately, it could be that actually having small businesses / one-man bands building mains powered equipment in a small workshop which is difficult to monitor without adding unsustainable costs in not viable. I really hope not, but I guess the situation is not helped by people selling amps built from kits on eBay for significantly less than it really should cost.

Modulus_Amps · July 2019

Agreed it is not the consumers responsibility to investigate if a product is safe, but in a market where people know about fret material, tone woods, string coatings, the magnets in the pickups, cites etc I think consumers should know a little about what the marks mean on the electrical products they purchase too.

Anyway this is off topic quite a bit, I had decided I was never going to build amps to sell, it was only after working in the O&G industry designing mechanical/electrical equipment for explosive atmospheres that I decided building basic valve amps to meet the LDV was not that hard after all. I think anybody who is building amps to sell should should have a level of confidence that they can do the same or at least make some effort to do so.

Remember Samsung released phones that burst into flames, Sh1t still happens

I don't think third party approvals is the answer for boutique builders, I think collaborative working between professionals is, I get asked CE marking related questions almost weekly, There probably needs to be better discussion forums for it, certainly not this thread anyway.

I think anybody choosing to ignore this and goes on to buy a cheap kit built on ebay, should consider taking the amp to a good tech to have it checked over for basics such as chassis grounding and HT fusing, things the US companies still get wrong.

57Deluxe · August 2019

ToneControl said:

<edit>

I'd recommend just using a delay with a couple of short repeats rather than reverb

yes, analog delay at a slapback level really does bring them to another level. Also - for that LazyJ Cruiser style drive tone, use a lowly dialed Fuzz rather than a TS or other...

ToneControl · August 2019

57Deluxe said:

ToneControl said:

<edit>

I'd recommend just using a delay with a couple of short repeats rather than reverb

yes, analog delay at a slapback level really does bring them to another level. Also - for that LazyJ Cruiser style drive tone, use a lowly dialed Fuzz rather than a TS or other...

remember what gearmandude says

"Reverb sucks"

;-)

ennspek · August 2019

Bloos Cube!

ToneControl · August 2019

lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhf0XP18Ba4

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Lazy J20 and alternatives?

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