(Jazz) Theory - Aug/Sus/Dim/etc

Jalapeno · March 2015

This discussion was created from comments split from: Any "easy" jazz chord progressions?.

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2015

@viz in the progression above, does "alt" mean altered 5th (either diminished or augmented depending on taste/style), and does "A7+13" mean "A7 with added 13th" or does the "+" imply "aug" ( as in R 3 #5 b7) ... and will an ordinary A13 chord do (R x b7 3 13 9) sorry can't watch the vid at work, will have to take note of your fingering when I get home.

Jalapeno · March 2015

It's taken me years to nail this as the words imply something exotic.

A7+13, is a A7 with an added 13th. (if it means you need 5 fingers you can drop the root & 5th - that's the bassist's job)

Alt means both the 5th AND 9th are altered in some way

Sus means no 3rd, it's raised or lowered

Aug/Dim relates to the 5th only

Slash chords A7/C relate to the bass note - safely ignored as again, that's the bassist's job

When I see these on a new chart I usually just play a triad until I get a feel for the melody - often the extensions are completely irrelevant to what's going on and are a fetish of the transcriber - loads of examples of this in Real Books

Megii · March 2015

Plenty of scope for confusion with chord symbols - for example A7+ is sometimes used instead of A7#5. So seeing A7+13, one could easily think a sharp 5 was intended, which I don't think it is.

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2015

Megii said:

Plenty of scope for confusion with chord symbols - for example A7+ is sometimes used instead of A7#5. So seeing A7+13, one could easily think a sharp 5 was intended, which I don't think it is.

Although I'd usually expect to see it written as A+7

Megii · March 2015

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Megii said:

Plenty of scope for confusion with chord symbols - for example A7+ is sometimes used instead of A7#5. So seeing A7+13, one could easily think a sharp 5 was intended, which I don't think it is.

Although I'd usually expect to see it written as A+7

I guess, and fair enough, but I can tell you I've been given printed parts which have A7+ as well.

viz · March 2015

Hello Pip,

Yep A alt is altered; I normally play it 5 4 5 6 6 x. So A7#5 I guess?

And yes the +13 meant Add 13 - me being lazy! I play it just like an A tonic b7, except it's a 6th: 5 7 5 6 7 5

Cheers!

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2015

shame there's not one common nomenclature for chord symbols. A classically trained pianist once read "G-7" as "G - seventh" and pulled me up for writing G dominant 7th as it didn't fit the melody. I said No, G-7 is not G7, it's lazy jazzers speak for Gm7. I don't think she got it.

Jalapeno · March 2015

Might as well get the chord symbols often seen in Real Books out of the way too ....

- means minor (7th)

Δ means Major (7th)

Ø means minor 7 flat five (aka half-diminshed)

° means diminished

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2015

@Jalapeno how do you get those symbols? (I think I could possibly do it on a PC running windoze as there seem to be characters you can get with the alt key, but worrabout Linux)?

Jalapeno · March 2015

Windoze character map - one of the most useful things Microsoft have written.

ChrisMusic · March 2015

It depends on the fonts designers as to which characters they choose to put into a set.

But the standard ASCII character set may well contain all of those ?

Try Alt and Alt shift to access whatever is there, that's the usual process of iterative trial and error I use anyway...

Ø = alt shift O on my Mac

∆ = alt J

° = alt shift 8

viz · March 2015

Jalapeno said:

It's taken me years to nail this as the words imply something exotic.

A7+13, is a A7 with an added 13th. (if it means you need 5 fingers you can drop the root & 5th - that's the bassist's job)

Alt means both the 5th AND 9th are altered in some way

Sus means no 3rd, it's raised or lowered

Aug/Dim relates to the 5th only

Slash chords A7/C relate to the bass note - safely ignored as again, that's the bassist's job

When I see these on a new chart I usually just play a triad until I get a feel for the melody - often the extensions are completely irrelevant to what's going on and are a fetish of the transcriber - loads of examples of this in Real Books

Nice. Of course you can also have augmented and diminished 4ths too: augmented 4ths for example in music based in lydian or overtone scales (eg the 3rd note in The Simpsons), and diminished 4ths, either based off the root (eg the 4th in the superlocrian scale), or somewhere else in the scale (eg from the 7th to the 3rd in the harmonic minor scale).

ChrisMusic · March 2015

Hey @viz, I reckon this would be a good time and place to post that extraordinary Excel scale file you created.

I am sure it would be a great resource for any new folks on here who haven't seen it yet, as well as a timely reminder for the rest of us.

viz · March 2015

What, that ole thing? Oooh no I couldn't!

http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes 2014_02_18 - for GTV.xlsx

(For overtone scale referred to above, it's called the acoustic scale on the file (aka lydian dominant and a whole heap of other names))

ChrisMusic · March 2015

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2015

I liked this:

http://mattwarnockguitar.com/jazz-blues-chord-substitutions-and-harmonic-alterations

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(Jazz) Theory - Aug/Sus/Dim/etc

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