Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

Clarky · April 2015

I've had a big turn around when it comes to teaching modes.. I used to teach the theory first and then put it on the neck..

seems good in theory.. lol.. but I've come to find that it's less successful to getting the student to really understand them..

the theory is all.. just theory really.. lol.. the main point is that you can't hear what's on paper so ends up being just an exercise in academia.. not fun and so it tends not to stick right away..

so I've reversed this so I show how to play them first, get the student to experiment and noodle around with them first, then after I'll go through the theory to illustrate what's actually going on and show what it is that makes them sound different.. the penny seems to drop better and sooner..

GuyBoden · April 2015

Clarky said:

I've had a big turn around when it comes to teaching modes.. I used to teach the theory first and then put it on the neck..
seems good in theory.. lol.. but I've come to find that it's less successful to getting the student to really understand them..
the theory is all.. just theory really.. lol.. the main point is that you can't hear what's on paper so ends up being just an exercise in academia.. not fun and so it tends not to stick right away..
so I've reversed this so I show how to play them first, get the student to experiment and noodle around with them first, then after I'll go through the theory to illustrate what's actually going on and show what it is that makes them sound different.. the penny seems to drop better and sooner..

Academia, yes, we all need to make money some how.

At the end of the day, it's all about playing music on the instrument, most audiences don't care if you do or don't know any theory.

Still, I do feel that advanced Harmony (beyond the usual chord shapes) is easier to understand with a bit of theory.........

Keep up the good work.
Guy

viz · April 2015

I think the best way to get to know the diatonic scales is to get to know the famous tunes for each, play them a lot, but as has been said, all in the same key (C Ionian, C Dorian, etc) so that you can immediately hear the scale being used. And in the first instance, forget the fact that they're modes of each other - that's relevant of course, but of secondary importance.

For example: Dorian: a minor scale but with a sharpened 6th. Eg: Greensleeves, drunken sailor, surfing with the alien, most western movie music, scarborough fair, etc. they all have that signature sweetened 'olde' quality due to the raised 6th, so get to recognise it.

Then if you have an inclination for the theoretical you can explore its relationship to other scales, for example:

- the parent diatonic scale (ionian)
- the other minor scales (aeolian and phrygian)
- the minor scales outside the diatonic family (melodic ascending, harmonic, persian minor, hungarian minor, etc)
- its relative major (lydian, which also has a sweetened note, the 4th).

You can this for every scale you're interested in.

GuyBoden · April 2015

viz said:

I think the best way to get to know the diatonic scales is to get to know the famous tunes for each, play them a lot, but as has been said, all in the same key (C Ionian, C Dorian, etc) so that you can immediately hear the scale being used. And in the first instance, forget the fact that they're modes of each other - that's relevant of course, but of secondary importance.

For example: Dorian: a minor scale but with a sharpened 6th. Eg: Greensleeves, drunken sailor, surfing with the alien, most western movie music, scarborough fair, etc. they all have that signature sweetened 'olde' quality due to the raised 6th, so get to recognise it.

Then if you have an inclination for the theoretical you can explore its relationship to other scales, for example:

- the parent diatonic scale (ionian)
- the other minor scales (aeolian and phrygian)
- the minor scales outside the diatonic family (melodic ascending, harmonic, persian minor, hungarian minor, etc)
- its relative major (lydian, which also has a sweetened note, the 4th).

You can this for every scale you're interested in.

I agree, but still, I do feel that guitarists are generally let down by their lack of knowledge about Harmony (beyond chord shapes) and experience tells me that Harmony is easier to understand with a bit of theory as well as ears.........

For example, the current "Solo of the Month" on this forum states the progression as "C minor D# major":
http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/38168/solo-of-the-month-2-chat#latest

Obviously Harmonically, it's in C minor, so theoretically it should be EbMaj not D# major, it won't sound any different, but it just shows a lack of Harmonic knowledge.

Guy

viz · April 2015

GuyBoden said:

viz said:

I think the best way to get to know the diatonic scales is to get to know the famous tunes for each, play them a lot, but as has been said, all in the same key (C Ionian, C Dorian, etc) so that you can immediately hear the scale being used. And in the first instance, forget the fact that they're modes of each other - that's relevant of course, but of secondary importance.

For example: Dorian: a minor scale but with a sharpened 6th. Eg: Greensleeves, drunken sailor, surfing with the alien, most western movie music, scarborough fair, etc. they all have that signature sweetened 'olde' quality due to the raised 6th, so get to recognise it.

Then if you have an inclination for the theoretical you can explore its relationship to other scales, for example:

- the parent diatonic scale (ionian)
- the other minor scales (aeolian and phrygian)
- the minor scales outside the diatonic family (melodic ascending, harmonic, persian minor, hungarian minor, etc)
- its relative major (lydian, which also has a sweetened note, the 4th).

You can this for every scale you're interested in.

I agree, but still, I do feel that guitarists are generally let down by their lack of knowledge about Harmony (beyond chord shapes) and experience tells me that Harmony is easier to understand with a bit of theory as well as ears.........

For example, the current "Solo of the Month" on this forum states the progression as "C minor D# major":
http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/38168/solo-of-the-month-2-chat#latest

Obviously Harmonically, it's in C minor, so theoretically it should be EbMaj not D# major, it won't sound any different, but it just shows a lack of Harmonic knowledge.

Guy

Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more, but a lot of musicians can play really well without theory (not me - I'm hampered without it, but that's my problem) - but I was really only referring to understanding the diatonic scales themselves.

(plus for us 1/4 comma enthusiasts, D# and Eb aren't even enharmonic

)

GuyBoden · April 2015

viz said:

Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more, but a lot of musicians can play really well without theory (not me - I'm hampered without it, but that's my problem) - but I was really only referring to understanding the diatonic scales, which is just tones and semitones really, not note names.

(plus for us 1/4 comma enthusiasts, D# and Eb aren't even enharmonic )

"I was really only referring to understanding the diatonic scales, which is just tones and semitones really, not note names."

IMHO, as you already probably know, the diatonic scales are directly related to Major/Minor Harmony and Diatonic Modal Harmony. As a generalisation, guitarists seem to learn lots of scales (too many scales perhaps), but few put the same amount of time and effort into learning the Harmony that's related to the scale.

Guy

viz · April 2015

Yep I know. And in fact I was going to go on to say (but didn't want to go on an on but I'll say it now anyway lol) that the reason the modal aspect of these scales is important can be illustrated rather nicely using Dorian as follows:

In the overwhelming majority of cases, there is a similarity between dorian pieces, inlcuding most of the examples above, and that is that as well as a minor root, they have a strongly major IV chord. This is unlike pieces in natual minor which tend to have a minor IV (such as parisienne walkways). Check out the western music from movies such as Apache, or good/bad/ugly theme. Whenever you have a minor I and a very major IV, the I is likely to be dorian because that sharpened 6th note in the I chord is enharmonic with the major 3rd in the IV chord. And it's reinforced even further if there's also a major VII chord too. So you immediately know to solo in Dorian; and the IV chord is going to have a flat 7 à la mixolydian; the VII chord will have an ionianic major 7th; and the V chord should in fact be minor (like in Stayin' Alive).

Just a little example of how, to my mind anyway, the theory can contribute to one's playing.

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Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

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