The way we think about amps

koneguitarist

Been looking at videos of the new Line 6 Amplifi amp range, and yes part of me thinks here we go again another gimmick, change the face of amps as we know itetc etc, part of me also thinks great idea.

But, there is always a but, for a lot of us of a certain age, commonly called old bas****'s, we have seen amps continually change from single channel low gain amps, heavy and cumbersome! to SS lightweight combos with built in FX.

Is this just another change, and with the OB's like me slowly becoming a minority over next few years, the younger beginners and guys not with a hang up that it has to be Valves or it's shit brigade, slowly allow valve amps to die for good. There is no doubt to me there is a place for valve amps, but there is a place for horse and carts but do we use them if we have an off road vehicle ?

After all one of the reasons we had stacks was people were playing bigger and bigger venues with crap PA systems, now we have much smaller higher quality PA systems and with the advent of DI boxes and the like, do we even need valve amps that often project the sound far further than the PA can.

We have had a load of revolutions through the last 50 plus years, a 2nd Chanel for OD, reverb and tremolo, extra gain stages, SS amps, digital amps, rack mount pre and power amps, does it matter as long as what you do with it is musical?

Just a random rant to provoke discussion.

Richardj

I am still relatively new to quality tube amps and in truth my meager playing ability probably doesn't justify it. However, I have been through a few amps in the last few years and I genuinely feel that a tube amp somehow sounds and almost as importantly, feels better.

I think the days of the monster 100+ watters is numbered, with decent PA there seems less reason for them.  Just look at how many manufacturers are throwing themselves at the low watt market, due to customer demand.  With the improvements in component and speaker technology 40-50 watts is adequate for most things.  The thing I always wonder about is whether once you have sent your beloved boutique amp tone into a desk and PA can you tell the difference between it and a good quality digital setup?

ecc83

Bump.

Dave.

ThePrettyDamned

I don't think the days of high powered valve amps are numbered, certainly not in the near future.

I think, however, it may become a *bit* more niche - great tone is available to many with things like the Kemper, AMT Stonehead, and the Orange crush pro etc.  People are using new gear to make new sounds, which is cool.

There is something for everyone.  

I find it amazing that the Fender Blackface sound is so sought after, because I've literally always thought it as rubbish, bright but boring - not fun compared to Tweed, not pretty enough for Silverface.  But other folks are happy enough... So they will continue being made and they will continue to be used.  People will always want Dumble style amps, because... Er... I don't know, note flipping? (I've yet to hear this in a demo or in person, everytime it's just been a way of hitting a note on the guitar which makes it respond in a certain way and can be achieved with any amp).  And that's fine - long live the Dumble clones, the Mesa Recs and the Tweed reissues.  They're all great.

But also long live innovation, which continues to give us new sounds.  This is totally new, sounds cool and means an electronic form of music is possible live, if you're that way inclined

And even within 'regular' guitars, new genres are still being made available to us, which bodes well for live music

I've tried 8 string guitars and, even through a 6505, it's hard to get those low strings sounding tight - whereas I've seen folks play them through solid state amps and it holds that bottom end together miles better. 

The Chinese are making valves nowadays, and they seem to have their own music industry coming on in leaps and bounds, so they may seek to improve the quality of the valves. 

jpfamps

Valve amps have never been more affordable.

Up to 2002 (the last date I've seen any info for) the valve market had been expanding, and my guess is that the appearance of ever cheaper valve amps means that the market is now even bigger.

The fact that valve production is concentrated to a few factories worldwide is not an indication that this is doomed technology, more indicative of how globalization effects production.

Viz, the recent floods in Thailand caused a massive spike in hard drive prices as one company there makes around a third of the World's hard drives.

thecolourbox

Its an interesting discussion. I think we would all agree that valves feel and sound better to us guitarists, but to Joe Public and through a PA system, there probably isn't a perceivable difference. This to me is where the innovation to make stuff convenient is great.

I did a gig at a vintage fair where i used a small tube amp as a monitor on stage, but the tone actually going through the PA was my guitar through an old Vox tonelab. I had more compliments on my tone that day than i have before or since, most other times ive used proper amps...

Having said that, on a related note, i saw one of those new Line 6 Amplifi things in the shop yesterday, they looked very snazzy indeed. Didn't bother trying one as i assumed theyd just sound like a Pod X3 but louder... But yeah, in the right application, I'm sure theyd work very well and nobody would know (or care) about the difference

Drew_TNBD

thecolourbox said:

Its an interesting discussion. I think we would all agree that valves feel and sound better to us guitarists, but to Joe Public and through a PA system, there probably isn't a perceivable difference.

I really wish people would stop saying this kind of chod.

koneguitarist

Drew_fx said:

thecolourbox said:

Its an interesting discussion. I think we would all agree that valves feel and sound better to us guitarists, but to Joe Public and through a PA system, there probably isn't a perceivable difference.

I really wish people would stop saying this kind of chod.

Don't tell me you are the one that can tell the difference ? I can't tell the difference when I'm in the audience, not sure anyone can, even top muso's.

But that's another discussion. 

I am no saying valves are not worth doing only I wonder how long the next generation will actually care if it's valves, SS or digital, as long as it works for them.

ICBM

I agree with koneguitarist about the outlook for valves - at least in consumer-level gear - although I also agree with Drew that I can tell the difference even from out in the audience (usually!). I wouldn't be surprised if valves are history for consumer-level gear inside twenty years, despite the current apparent resurgence in demand and the falling cost. I know I've said that before, but I feel it's coming sooner now that it seemed even five years ago.

Consumers are fickle and when technology changes 'paradigm' or whatever you call it, the old stuff is dropped like a hot potato, even if the new stuff isn't quite the same quality as the old - as long as it has enough significant advantages it overrides that. mp3 doesn't sound as good as CD, but it has a lot of other advantages. How many CD Walkmans are now sold? How many CRT TVs and monitors are made now, even given that as recently as about ten years ago almost no graphics professional would use a TFT?

I come across an increasing number of players who can't be bothered with the 'hassle' of valve amps - not just having to change valves, but that they're perceived (rightly with cheaper ones) as less reliable, are often slightly noisier, don't sound the same at low volumes as high, don't have enough sounds, are too heavy, etc…

Modelling and even analogue solid-state have come a long way recently. I certainly don't think it's unlikely that for most users, valves just aren't worth the bother any more for a diminishing gap in tone - particularly as the ability of valve amps to cut through a mix and sound far louder than their rated power is becoming less important now that most venues require lower stage levels and a lot of bands are moving to IEMs. I don't think high-end users will stop using them though.

I could also see new valve production ceasing, at least in volume - as Russia and China modernise and westernise, are they really going to want to be producing valves? Svetlana has recently stopped. So it also wouldn't surprise me if those die-hard valve amp users are going to be chasing a diminishing resource.

ThePrettyDamned

I would love a valve amp - but for the sake of portability, it would need to be a head and cab.  

But thing is, if I wanted a valve head and cab, it would NEED to be a 6505+ and a nice cab to go with it, or possibly an MJW Orion with a nice, silverface twin esque clean sound and... Wel, a 5150 lead channel.  Anything else would not do to be honest, if I'm going to spend, I want to get what I really want.

For that kind of money, I could go for a Kemper, and I'll be damned if it's not very easy to get some quality models of the 6505 on that.  As well as the rest! And I've seen a lot of bands recently, and most of them (Trivium, Protest the Hero, and I think The Safety Fire, possibly Intervals) all used a digital modeller.  And they sounded great.

benmurray85

great discussion. i reckon i could tell the difference but not in a know-it-all, geeky kinda way but more what sounds pleasant to my ear. I can honestly say I've never heard or played an SS amp that I've found anywhere near as pleasurable as my own amps (all valve) I play valve amps because i like the way they react to the player, or to me basically. until they invent an SS amp that can copy the way that valves react to the tone and volume controls on a guitar being used i will continue to play valve. As you've mentioned age I'm 28. Not particularly young but young enough! 

good read this though and quite thought provoking. nice one

martinw

ICBM said:

I could also see new valve production ceasing, at least in volume - as Russia and China modernise and westernise, are they really going to want to be producing valves? 

JJ manage in Slovakia. A member of the EU, and a high-income advanced economy. As long as there's demand, someone will find a way, however small scale. No demand? Then it'll stop.

JJ's 12,000 sq mtr factory

And yes, I can tell the difference in the audience. Not that I believe that kind of 'lowest common denominator' chod should motivate us!

ThePrettyDamned

Yeah, that's a good point - it's partly genre dependant.  Modern metal doesn't use the same high gain tones of olde - it uses crunch from an amp that *can* do mega gain.  Modellers and probably the AMT stonehead seem to do this better than valve amps when lower tunings are involved, though the Mesa Dual Rec and 5150 types are also very good. 

I've recently done a recording with the Bandit and, while it won't win any awards (too much gain, bit of fizziness), I think a wee bit of eq and compression could sort it and make it reasonable in a mix.  Bandits are a *cheap* amp, so that's a pretty decent result!

I'm going to try re recording with less  gain and more mids/treble and stack it with a more scooped sound, and see how that goes.  But if it sounds good, it's good enough for me.  Will it sound valvey?  I hope not - I want it to be hard, percussive and heavy, with a lot of sparkle in the top end.  Something most valve amps struggle with!

The cleans are nice, add some compression and you can get some nice clean stuff, but it's *clean*.  Not even a hint of breakup.  Takes pedals well, but it's not what you'd call inspirational so much as pleasing to the ear.  If you're planning on using nice, edge of breakup clean tones, this is not for you.  It's fine for the odd clean break, perhaps clean funk stuff, but for blues and raunchy rhythm, probably not. This seems to be the case with most solid state amps I've played, and no doubt valve has the edge - even when set to clean clean, they have something about them that's just nicer to play with, though whether the audience cares...

Dave_Mc

benmurray85 said:

great discussion. i reckon i could tell the difference but not in a know-it-all, geeky kinda way but more what sounds pleasant to my ear. I can honestly say I've never heard or played an SS amp that I've found anywhere near as pleasurable as my own amps (all valve) I play valve amps because i like the way they react to the player, or to me basically. until they invent an SS amp that can copy the way that valves react to the tone and volume controls on a guitar being used i will continue to play valve. As you've mentioned age I'm 28. Not particularly young but young enough! 

good read this though and quite thought provoking. nice one

+1

jpfamps

As I've posted (ad nauseam), the imminent demise of the valve for guitar amps has been predicted ever since I started playing (early 80s).

Incidentally it was also conventional wisdom that synths would make obsolete the Hammond organ, Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzers etc.

And gawd knows how many formats vinyl has seen off.

Ultimately, looking at the massive body of around 90 years recorded popular music, valve amps were used almost without exception for electric guitar, so in my view there will always be a market for them.

Richardj

I wouldn't want my '100+ watt amp obsolete' comment to be taken out of context.  Just last weekend I was on the receiving end of a Marshall Super Lead at full chat at close quarters and it was a near seismic event. I personally feel that the increased popularity of sub 50 watt amps and better, more portable PA systems makes them less of a necessity if you need to play a reasonable sized room.

They still look and sound cool though!

timmysoft

I think there's far too much emphasis on amps these days, when I started playing in '95 it was all about the guitar and the amp was really just that, an amp! These days amps cover a huge sonic territory but I think now they all seem to add too much "amp" into the sound, I like to hear the flaws in my guitar rather than the perfection in my amplifier.

koneguitarist

As I said in my OP it's not that I think SS or digital is better, it is in some cases and not in others, I think we all agree on that.

It's just that some of us have grown up with valve amps as our first amps, and we have learnt to play with valve amp tones etc, but like a great many of us at our age, we always thought Gibson or Fender, nothing else will do, however guys coming through in the 80's and 90's when Ibanez, Yamaha, Tokaii all were building better quality than the big names! have no hang up over the name.

Do guys coming through now think, my Kemper/ Fractal/line6 etc is every bit as good as valve amps and this is all i need? If so, then surely as more and more younger musicians start coming through, the digital stuff is natural for them to use?

I am not saying one way or the other which is best as there is no definitive answer, only what suits the end user.

p90fool

100w valve stacks haven't been a necessity since around 1970, but they (well, closed-back 4x12s in particular) have a particular sound and feel that's hard to get any other way. It's not all about sheer volume or looking good on stage.

FWIW, every competent young player who tries my valve amps comes away amazed at the dynamic feel and rich, deep sounds they're getting, out of simple, production-line stuff. It's not just us old farts who get it, anyone with a good ear and a well-controlled picking technique does.

Interestingly, I can get closer to a good valve amp using digital modelling than I ever have with analogue S/S, but it helps that I know exactly what I'm chasing when I'm programming.

ICBM

timmysoft said:

I think there's far too much emphasis on amps these days, when I started playing in '95 it was all about the guitar and the amp was really just that, an amp! These days amps cover a huge sonic territory but I think now they all seem to add too much "amp" into the sound, I like to hear the flaws in my guitar rather than the perfection in my amplifier.

Are you sure that wasn't 1895?

Or at least 1985…

I agree that back in the old days amps were just seen as a box which made your guitar loud, but I'm pretty sure that most players thought of them as part of the tone chain from around the middle 70s onwards - basically when amps with a signature preamp overdrive sound began to come in.

jpfamps said:

As I've posted (ad nauseam), the imminent demise of the valve for guitar amps has been predicted ever since I started playing (early 80s).

Incidentally it was also conventional wisdom that synths would make obsolete the Hammond organ, Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzers etc.

And gawd knows how many formats vinyl has seen off.

Ultimately, looking at the massive body of around 90 years recorded popular music, valve amps were used almost without exception for electric guitar, so in my view there will always be a market for them.

I agree, but not a mass market.

The real difference between now and any time in the past is that the alternatives are starting to sound really good. (Even with the caveat that a lot of us can still tell, and care.)

Same with vinyl. Even with the current resurgence, how popular is it actually, compared to mp3?

p90fool said:

100w valve stacks haven't been a necessity since around 1970, but they (well, closed-back 4x12s in particular) have a particular sound and feel that's hard to get any other way. It's not all about sheer volume or looking good on stage.

FWIW, every competent young player who tries my valve amps comes away amazed at the dynamic feel and rich, deep sounds they're getting, out of simple, production-line stuff. It's not just us old farts who get it, anyone with a good ear and a well-controlled picking technique does.

Interestingly, I can get closer to a good valve amp using digital modelling than I ever have with analogue S/S, but it helps that I know exactly what I'm chasing when I'm programming.

I agree about the *sound* but not about the *tone* - it's hard to quite explain, but to me digital modelling sounds more like a valve amp in terms of overall sound, but analogue solid state still sounds better in terms of tone. I suspect modelling records better, but analogue sounds better live.

I agree about 100-watters, for me it's nothing to do with volume and all to do with tone. I play at a maximum of about 10-15W (I know because I've used amps of that power, and they are 'loud enough'), but my 100W amp just sounds better.

57Deluxe

Watch this whilst having a break... No wonder they cost the earth!