The way we think about amps

guitarfishbay

What it boils down to is this - You're only ever going to play that particular gig to those particular people once. So it has to sound good and everything counts. Equipment and performance. Equipment and performance aren't mutually exclusive since equipment facilitates performance.

Fusionista

The discriminator here is between conscious and unconscious: I can hear the difference, and identify (for the most part) what is technically right and what is falling short;  the audience - in general - hears a 'good' or a 'bad' sound.

Therefore my policy is the same as ICBM's.  I have spent much (aarrgghhh - too much), and continue to invest in, my sound. I get people coming up and saying 'Awesome'  - and it sure ain't my playing - or looks. In fact that has always been the idea: I make up in the quality of my sound for any lack of virtuosity. And it seems to work.

For the record, that sound is a 'valve' sound.  Other than for trad jazz guitar, I have never managed to get what I want from a s/s amp.

thecolourbox

Its a different point though between good and bad or tube and non-tube? I'm still quite happy that i can sound good without a tube amp, tone wise, if not abilitywise ha ha if we are ever in a band together though, ive no doubt it may improve, but to me a lot of it is if one is happy with ones sound, you'll play/perform accordingly, whatever the method. Same if you enjoy the music you're playing i suppose

Drew_TNBD

I could probably sound good with a non-tube amp as well. I'd no doubt enjoy it just as much, but it depends what tones you want. Tubes are a certain sound, solid state is another. They're not the same. If you think I'm crazy for spending £1000 on a valve amp, you're missing the point. It does THE sound I want, regardless of how many solid-state or small combo options there are on the market.

koneguitarist

Lets not get up on the hang ups about what is best here, the point is like young kids coming through listening to downloads while we all bought Albums that as my daughter says, "what they used to use in the old days , are the youngsters coming through worried that its Valve SS or Digital?

From my experience of gigging about 36 years now, I have played in rock bands, country, Blues, Cabaret, rockabilly bands etc etc etc. apart from the odd musician in the audience no one has cared what amp I have used. they have asked me about my guitars or basses, but never what amp I am using.

I don`t want the whole argument to be about Valve versus everything else, that's not the point. Tone is, and one mans tone is another mans crap sound.

One small thing though, there are a lot of great amps out there, the old Fender Twin, the JMP the AC30, and I am sure live, these amps move air and can really throw their sound far more than the usual Modelling or SS amp, that is a positive in some instances and a negative in other`s. We as guitarists know the way these amps feel and respond to our playing, but the audience does not get that feel, they hear a sound. Now they either like it or don`t, end of.

koneguitarist

thecolourbox said:

Its a different point though between good and bad or tube and non-tube? I'm still quite happy that i can sound good without a tube amp, tone wise, if not abilitywise ha ha if we are ever in a band together though, ive no doubt it may improve, but to me a lot of it is if one is happy with ones sound, you'll play/perform accordingly, whatever the method. Same if you enjoy the music you're playing i suppose

Good point !

ThePrettyDamned

I think the Kemper is probably the biggest thing to happen to amps since line 6. It's taken that idea and made it good.


Playing a good valve amp is like walking a high wire: there's a narrow range where the thing is singing, and if you fall off it the sound changes rapidly.   Modern amps are more forgiving, and you just don't (IMO) get that 'peak' resonance.  Attack with valve amps is critical, so you get a changing variety of sounds which is difficult to emulate with digiware.

Not saying all valve amps are 'good', or always better.  It is about the guitar/amp (valve+tonestack)/speaker combination and sometimes it doesn't work.  

Neither am I saying there aren't some great digitones out there. But this guy was imprinted in the late 60's and that's the tone I want.

Of course I could be fooling myself, but I've spent a long time tone hunting, and that's my take on it.[/quote]

Could not disagree more, valve amps are as forgiving as they get, it's mostly easy to sound pretty good, so long as you have the amp suitable for the job.

Try dialing in a giggable tone on a ss amp, and tell me it is more forgiving in any style. They still react, but differently - and they can sound as good, or better than a valve amp at some genres, but you need to work it right. Give me a 6505 and I'll play djent and metal, give me a tweed bassman and I'll easily get classic blues. Classic rock? Sounds like a job for one of the many, many Marshall inspired valve amps out there.

But if your budget is limited to low price solid state amps, you need to work the amp, spend ages tweaking the eq. I've had to change my pick preference to get an attack I like, and having played with some friends recently I can attest that, after tweaking, it sounded fab. Before tweaking, it sounded harsh and... Awful. In every way. As volume changes, the eq must change, so my bedroom practice settings were useless.

Will the audience hear the difference? I don't care, because it would be my art and I want to present it right. I wouldn't be happy unless I liked how I sounded.

With stuff like the Kemper, it's about cost, portability, reliability, patch switching and versatility. You probably won't see many blues rock outfits using them, why bother when you can get a cheap valve amp that'll do the job better? But if you're in a modern rock, experimental or alternative band, or even a covers band, you have everything you need. You still need to take the time to set it up, and learn to work the amp - not just the knobs and switches, but the way you hit the guitar. It's also an amazing backup for the well heeled among us.

I think the audience do notice. My mate doesn't give a damn about gear (he's just a listener) but he knows good tone from bad. He won't know why, but he has described a local classic rock band as having a tiring sound. When I say the audience don't care, it's when they hear 2 good sounds. They'll know if you sound bad, though.

Fusionista

Clearly we are going to stay well disagreed on that

I would reckon to hear 1 pro guitarist in 10 get a really good tone out of any amp, s/s or valve, and I'm erring on the generous side.

Just recently I went to see a really famous guitarist from a top band.  He had a tele and a Marshall half-stack with some pedals, and you'd've have thought 'There is no way to get a bad sound out of that.' Wrong.  Ear-splitting screeching blaring crap. Now I expect that from your average guitarist, but not from a multi-millionnaire top band of the day musician.

ICBM

Good point from koneguitarist about whether the 'throw' and 'presence' of a valve amp is always a good thing or sometimes a bad thing. I have a friend who uses a Line6 Spider. I hated these amps. They "sound" OK, but they have no dynamics and if anything sound like a recording of a guitar, to me. But what he uses it for is something a bit unusual - he does live solo guitar instrumental (mostly) gigs with backing tracks, all through a small PA. For that, the Spider is perfect - it sits in the mix exactly like a recorded guitar track in a recorded band track. He originally tried using one of his Marshall valve amps for that, and it was awful - far too dynamic, overpowering and strident… unless turned down to the point it was suddenly too quiet - so first he replaced that with a Fender Champion 110, which worked better (although no-one's idea of a better-sounding amp than a valve Marshall) and then finally the Line6 which solved the problem.

But then he started to like the light weight of the Spider, so he took it to play with his real band, where he would normally use the Marshalls… and it was utterly useless. Sounded dreadful and harsh when cranked up, and when the bass and drums kicked in it was like the Line6 had literally stopped working - inaudible until they stopped again. That's the type of experience I'd had with them as well, which is why I hated them - but the fact remains that it's better than the valve amp for the other type of gig. Horses for courses, obviously.

So I would expect that as music moves more to very controlled stage levels, everything through the PA, IEMs and all the other stuff that are becoming standard nowadays, that 'recorded sound in a recorded mix' aspect of modellers will start to be seen as desirable in a live sound. *Personally*, I don't like that - I prefer live to sound live, I like the 'real' sound of a couple of amps on a stage with a drum kit in a common acoustic space. I don't want to listen to something that sounds like a recording at a gig, I want the sound to come from different places on the stage corresponding to where the musicians are, I want the musicians to use their own dynamics to control their own relative volume and tone without a soundman having to adjust it, and I want a bit of roughness and 'life' in it. For me, analogue amps (including most solid state) do that much better than digital amps.

But I have also begun to develop a liking for the same sort of jazz my father did, so clearly I'm just getting on a bit .

koneguitarist

I agree about liking amps and a drum kit on stage and being part of the sound, the problem we have nowadays is that the audience has grown up listening to duos and Karaoke stuff, where it sounds like a recording, and that's acceptable to them.

I seem to be going the other way, going from a 4pc to a 5 pc, and still like the idea of a 6pc.

But it gets harder for small local  pub bands, how much gear can you take, how much time to set up and sound check ?

Its nice when you play a venue where people are there to actually listen to the band as opposed to them being incidental music while they are drinking !

ThePrettyDamned

Fusionista;165408" said:

Clearly we are going to stay well disagreed on that

I would reckon to hear 1 pro guitarist in 10 get a really good tone out of any amp, s/s or valve, and I'm erring on the generous side.

Just recently I went to see a really famous guitarist from a top band.  He had a tele and a Marshall half-stack with some pedals, and you'd've have thought 'There is no way to get a bad sound out of that.' Wrong.  Ear-splitting screeching blaring crap. Now I expect that from your average guitarist, but not from a multi-millionnaire top band of the day musician.

Room acoustics perhaps? Or were you in a laser beam of sound? That happened to me at download with slipknot, but when I moved twenty paces forward, it was miles better sounding.

If I could afford to, the bandit would be a backup and my main amp would be a 5153. It would be much, much easier to sound good. Valves seem to flatter everything you do on a guitar, whereas solid state amps (not modelers) are responsive to the point of being annoying, especially on the clean channel when it's turned up. No nice valve compression to even out the volume of those accidentally harder hits, just more hard headroom, making that note jump out in a very obvious way, not really blending in. Which can be good, but in general...

It's worth noting I like solid state amps, enough that the tone I get from the bandit is probably the best I've sounded for heavy styles, which is now my 'thing'. But if I had the cash, I'd absolutely go Kemper or valve.

koneguitarist

Funny how the bandit keeps cropping up, I had a  blues tweed deluxe reissue that I thought was so SS sounding I allowed a guy to part ex his bandit against it. the bandit was so much better in my ears, much more valve like ?

Drew_TNBD

That's another thing to consider... whenever people like a SS amp... they nearly ALWAYS say "wow.. it sounds sooooo valve..."

Very odd.

jpfamps

Some random points.

1) I think it's unwise (and indeed very complacent) to under estimate your audience. They may know why a band sounds good, but they will appreciate a great sounding band. To claim that your audience can't tell the difference in your sound is a slippery slope: do they care if you play in time/ tune, or are playing the "right" chords?

2) Getting a good sound (with whatever technology you chose) is part of doing a good job. And by that I mean the whole band should sound good. I've seen far too many gigs (including some big venues) where the sound is atrocious. It's hardly surprising then that people are put off live music. In my experience, getting a good live sound is a sure way of getting repeat bookings.

3) With the huge spectrum of gear available today there is really no excuse for not having the tools for getting a good sound. Whether you achieve this is then down to you.

4) When I play my guitar/ bass in public I am being paid to provide entertainment, and I try my best to do this. If people aren't interested in the music I'm playing, then I see that as a failure in my behalf, not on the audiences.

ThePrettyDamned

Wisdom for that man!

DrJazzTap

I think it boils down to what the guitarist wants, or intended usage. I think valves are somewhat thought of with rose tinted specs. When I was gigging my father thought i was mad for taking "40s technology" out with me. Especially something which was going to bang around in the back of a transit van!
Gigging bands I've seen lately have been using solid state amps, and from standing at the bar without looking, I couldnt tell the guy was using an old Marshall Valvestate head. Just sounded like GNR to me
I don't gig as much as I used to and I like the sound a tweed style amp. I personally don't like things too complicated. I got burnt with a Marshall TSL, when the reverb died the only way to fix it was to drive four hours to milton keynes. So now I try and pick something which is as basic as possible. I also discovered Wampler pedals, which bowled me over. My friend told me he has just dialled his sound in with his Dual Rec (it's been three years!!) I also suffer from option paralysis, I'm a terrible tweaker! I dread to imagine the patches and banks I could get lost in on a AXEFX. I'm intrigued to try out one of the new Orange solid state heads, that might be a viable option for a vintage style dual channel head for me.

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

That's another thing to consider... whenever people like a SS amp... they nearly ALWAYS say "wow.. it sounds sooooo valve..."

Very odd.

Indeed.

I like solid-state amps for what they are, which is *not* valve amps. Although with my preference for overpowered, heavy-sounding valve amps I sometimes wonder whether I'm actually trying to get a solid-state sound out of them as well .

koneguitarist

jpfamps said:

Some random points.

1) I think it's unwise (and indeed very complacent) to under estimate your audience. They may know why a band sounds good, but they will appreciate a great sounding band. To claim that your audience can't tell the difference in your sound is a slippery slope: do they care if you play in time/ tune, or are playing the "right" chords?

2) Getting a good sound (with whatever technology you chose) is part of doing a good job. And by that I mean the whole band should sound good. I've seen far too many gigs (including some big venues) where the sound is atrocious. It's hardly surprising then that people are put off live music. In my experience, getting a good live sound is a sure way of getting repeat bookings.

3) With the huge spectrum of gear available today there is really no excuse for not having the tools for getting a good sound. Whether you achieve this is then down to you.

4) When I play my guitar/ bass in public I am being paid to provide entertainment, and I try my best to do this. If people aren't interested in the music I'm playing, then I see that as a failure in my behalf, not on the audiences.

Point 1, sometimes the band can't tell they are in tune !

Point 2 totally agree 

Point 3 totally agree 

Point 4 agree with first part not 2nd, unfortunately I have played too many gigs where wrong type band has been booked, and where music is 2nd fiddle to football on Sky.

 I take pride in getting my band to sound as good as possible, we use a small PA with no sound man, only me mixing the band, then me getting onstage and asking singer if guitar is loud enough to cut through.

Maybe venues are different in other areas but around Somerset and Dorset, it can be quite frustrating, knowing unless you play soca (same old crap again) then you are unlikely to go down as well as band playing that stuff badly !

Cacofonix

ThePrettyDamned said:

Fusionista;165408" said:

Clearly we are going to stay well disagreed on that

I would reckon to hear 1 pro guitarist in 10 get a really good tone out of any amp, s/s or valve, and I'm erring on the generous side.

Just recently I went to see a really famous guitarist from a top band.  He had a tele and a Marshall half-stack with some pedals, and you'd've have thought 'There is no way to get a bad sound out of that.' Wrong.  Ear-splitting screeching blaring crap. Now I expect that from your average guitarist, but not from a multi-millionnaire top band of the day musician.

Room acoustics perhaps? Or were you in a laser beam of sound? That happened to me at download with slipknot, but when I moved twenty paces forward, it was miles better sounding.

If I could afford to, the bandit would be a backup and my main amp would be a 5153. It would be much, much easier to sound good. Valves seem to flatter everything you do on a guitar, whereas solid state amps (not modelers) are responsive to the point of being annoying, especially on the clean channel when it's turned up. No nice valve compression to even out the volume of those accidentally harder hits, just more hard headroom, making that note jump out in a very obvious way, not really blending in. Which can be good, but in general...

It's worth noting I like solid state amps, enough that the tone I get from the bandit is probably the best I've sounded for heavy styles, which is now my 'thing'. But if I had the cash, I'd absolutely go Kemper or valve.

I don't like the "immediacy" of solid state.  The response of a valve amp is such that the 'ping' of the pick is softened, at least to my ears.

I went to see a name player once, and his hugely well-known support band.  I might have been sat in the wrong place (cheap seats), but they sounded absolutely terrible.  Overly trebly, harsh, just horrible.  My other half walked out and sat in the loo through the whole support set.  Their guitarist was playing through a £4k amp.

Went to see a local punk band, and they were playing through a 5150.  Sounded amazing.   A bit of care in setting up can make all the difference, I think.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM;165505" said:

Drew_fx said:

That's another thing to consider... whenever people like a SS amp... they nearly ALWAYS say "wow.. it sounds sooooo valve..."



Very odd.










Indeed.

I like solid-state amps for what they are, which is *not* valve amps. Although with my preference for overpowered, heavy-sounding valve amps I sometimes wonder whether I'm actually trying to get a solid-state sound out of them as well .

This is true. I can dial in a nice, mid scooped low gain drive sound that is sort of fendery on mine, and it's nice, but it sounds it's best when you use the solid state to its advantage - everything stays tight, there is no sag and everything is immediate, which makes stop start riffing sound great.

I wouldn't want to dial in a classic Marshall drive on it because I doubt it's there. But with careful tweaking of the eq, I can get a slash-esque level of gain with a tone that's perfectly good. Not like a Marshall, but it sounds good for sleazy riffs anyway.