Body wood affects tone

Three-ColourSunburst

Been looking hard to find a definitive answer one way or the other, and still haven't found one. This series looked very promising until the very end when the builder (who admits to a strong belief in 'tone wood') either unconsciously or deliberately introduced a huge variable by tending to play the maple build closer to the bridge than the mahogany version, with predictable results. When the two guitars were picked in more or less the same position, the tonal differences seem to disappear.

professorben

koneguitarist

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Been looking hard to find a definitive answer one way or the other, and still haven't found one. This series looked very promising until the very end when the builder (who admits to a strong belief in 'tone wood') either unconsciously or deliberately introduced a huge variable by tending to play the maple build closer to the bridge than the mahogany version, with predictable results. When the two guitars were picked in more or less the same position, the tonal differences seem to disappear.

There is no definitive answer, stop looking. 

Sassafras

professorben said:

This reminds me of a recording a guy i used to work with in the music shop played to me. 

3 clips. 
Asked me to choose my favourite, they were French Horn solo sections. 

I picked my favourite much to his amusement. 

2 were vintage (read 1800's classic French Horns, the equivalent of a '59 Burst or pre CBS Strat) 
the 3rd was a length of hosepipe with a horn mouthpiece fitted.

Guess which I picked as having 'the fullest tone and resonance' 

Was it a polythene or vulcanised rubber hosepipe?
The type of material used would have a huge impact on the sound.
Polythene for a modern sound, vulcanised rubber for a more mellow vintage sound.

richardhomer

koneguitarist said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Been looking hard to find a definitive answer one way or the other, and still haven't found one. This series looked very promising until the very end when the builder (who admits to a strong belief in 'tone wood') either unconsciously or deliberately introduced a huge variable by tending to play the maple build closer to the bridge than the mahogany version, with predictable results. When the two guitars were picked in more or less the same position, the tonal differences seem to disappear.

There is no definitive answer, stop looking. 

That's the worst demo I've ever seen. The absolute minimum expectation I have of these things is that the guitar will be in tune....

Kalimna

Sassafras said:

professorben said:

This reminds me of a recording a guy i used to work with in the music shop played to me. 

3 clips. 
Asked me to choose my favourite, they were French Horn solo sections. 

I picked my favourite much to his amusement. 

2 were vintage (read 1800's classic French Horns, the equivalent of a '59 Burst or pre CBS Strat) 
the 3rd was a length of hosepipe with a horn mouthpiece fitted.

Guess which I picked as having 'the fullest tone and resonance' 

Was it a polythene or vulcanised rubber hosepipe?
The type of material used would have a huge impact on the sound.
Polythene for a modern sound, vulcanised rubber for a more mellow vintage sound.

Not to mention teflon-coated for those smooooth jazz tones....

AustrianJohn

Some people think that tonewoods make a significant difference to the sound of an electric guitar. I'm not sure, and I'm certainly not convinced by some of the arguments put forward in this thread.

impmann said: Bottom line is  - yes it does affect the tone. If it didn't, Gibson and Fender would just be using the cheapest woods they could possibly find, sourced from anywhere in the world of any species.

Sorry, that's just not true. Gibson and Fender will do whatever it takes to part you from your hard-earned money. If you think tonewood is important, they'll build guitars from tonewood, they'll charge you a fortune for them, and you'll pay up.

Squires come in basswood, agathis, poplar, alder, mahogany, cedar and pine. Epiphones use basswood and lots of things called mahogany  (that wouldn't have been called mahogany 50 years ago).

impmann said: We've all played guitars that are a bit 'meh' or that don't sound great - even stuff that is supposed to be great, made of great "tonewood".

Doesn't that contradict your argument that tonewood is important (and good)?

impmann said: I've even played a very famous guitar (one of the most famous in the world) that frankly didn't sound as great in my hands as it did on those classic recordings. I guess thats more to do with the connection of the the player to the instrument than the actual construction. However, what made that Les Paul sound 'meh' to me and another (my own) that inspires me to play - and in fact sometimes inspires me to play beyond my perceived limitations - due to its incredible sound? The pickups? The hardware? Or the woods? Or all the above? If it was just about a string vibrating freely then surely all Les Pauls would sound the same or react the same to the dynamics of your playing... but they *don't*.

That Les Paul sounded magical in the hands of two great players. Perhaps the player is more important than the wood that the guitar is made from?

impmann said:So - many variables. And those that bang the drum that it doesn't make any difference are welcome to their opinions - they won't change mine. :-)

I'm not sure what your opinion is - at the start you say that tonewoods affect the tone, then you say that great tonewood is a bit meh, then you diss one of the greatest guitars the world has ever known. So is tonewood important? From what you've said it doesn't seem to be.

Confused :-(

AustrianJohn

bacchanalian said:

Next thing someone will try to convince me that my tinfoil hat does not stop the Government reading my mind.

That depends. Is it tonetinfoil?

OilCityPickups

I have a rather interesting Telecaster ... I built it a few years ago ... its Telecaster shaped, but has a masonite top and back and a softwood (pine) frame that creates the body edge. A softwood block allows for a string through, but basically its a cheap box with Tele hardware. Constructed like a Danelectro ... how do you think it sounds?

koneguitarist

My tele has a Spalted Beech Top, hardly a "tone"wood, still sounds like a tele! 

dindude

TheGuitarWeasel said:

I have a rather interesting Telecaster ... I built it a few years ago ... its Telecaster shaped, but has a masonite top and back and a softwood (pine) frame that creates the body edge. A softwood block allows for a string through, but basically its a cheap box with Tele hardware. Constructed like a Danelectro ... how do you think it sounds?

Is this the guitar equivelant of: my dog has no nose. How does it smell? (Potentially with the same punchline)

OilCityPickups

It sounds like a Danelectro crossed with a Telecaster ... exactly what the body wood and construction would lead you to believe.

Rabs

impmann

AustrianJohn said:

Some people think that tonewoods make a significant difference to the sound of an electric guitar. I'm not sure, and I'm certainly not convinced by some of the arguments put forward in this thread.

impmann said: Bottom line is  - yes it does affect the tone. If it didn't, Gibson and Fender would just be using the cheapest woods they could possibly find, sourced from anywhere in the world of any species.

Sorry, that's just not true. Gibson and Fender will do whatever it takes to part you from your hard-earned money. If you think tonewood is important, they'll build guitars from tonewood, they'll charge you a fortune for them, and you'll pay up.

Squires come in basswood, agathis, poplar, alder, mahogany, cedar and pine. Epiphones use basswood and lots of things called mahogany  (that wouldn't have been called mahogany 50 years ago).

impmann said: We've all played guitars that are a bit 'meh' or that don't sound great - even stuff that is supposed to be great, made of great "tonewood".

Doesn't that contradict your argument that tonewood is important (and good)?

impmann said: I've even played a very famous guitar (one of the most famous in the world) that frankly didn't sound as great in my hands as it did on those classic recordings. I guess thats more to do with the connection of the the player to the instrument than the actual construction. However, what made that Les Paul sound 'meh' to me and another (my own) that inspires me to play - and in fact sometimes inspires me to play beyond my perceived limitations - due to its incredible sound? The pickups? The hardware? Or the woods? Or all the above? If it was just about a string vibrating freely then surely all Les Pauls would sound the same or react the same to the dynamics of your playing... but they *don't*.

That Les Paul sounded magical in the hands of two great players. Perhaps the player is more important than the wood that the guitar is made from?

impmann said:So - many variables. And those that bang the drum that it doesn't make any difference are welcome to their opinions - they won't change mine. :-)

I'm not sure what your opinion is - at the start you say that tonewoods affect the tone, then you say that great tonewood is a bit meh, then you diss one of the greatest guitars the world has ever known. So is tonewood important? From what you've said it doesn't seem to be.

Confused :-(

Thanks for pointing that out.

What I'm trying to say, albeit clumsily as you illustrate is yes there can be a difference but only you can decide if 1) it's 'better' or 2) it matters to your style of playing. However those differences can be generalised - and when you generalise you always create exceptions to 'the rule'.

And yes, the most important factor in all of this is the player. 

Clear as mud? :-)

Sassafras

Next we'll be saying the type of strings don't matter.

Three-ColourSunburst

professorben said:

This reminds me of a recording a guy i used to work with in the music shop played to me. 

3 clips. 
Asked me to choose my favourite, they were French Horn solo sections. 

I picked my favourite much to his amusement. 

2 were vintage (read 1800's classic French Horns, the equivalent of a '59 Burst or pre CBS Strat) 
the 3rd was a length of hosepipe with a horn mouthpiece fitted.

Guess which I picked as having 'the fullest tone and resonance' 

This highlights an important point in this debate - when people have prior expectations of what should sound 'best', or believe that a certain method of construction or wood will influence the sound in certain way and have prior knowledge of the way an instrument is built, they will hear what they expect to hear. However, in blind testing this preference and (supposed) ability to discriminate no matter how robust, will disappear. This seems to have been a major topic in research in relation to old violins recently, and has pretty much blown the mythology of the Stradivarius, the importance of 'aged wood' and so on out of the water. Amazingly, this appears to be equally true for both listeners and players. For example.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/3/760.full.pdf

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7224.full.pdf

It is also interesting that there is a vast amount of research on the way construction and wood affects the sound of violins, acoustic guitars and so on (as with the study of Chladni resonance patterns) but no seemingly true academic study of the effects of 'tone wood' in solid body electric guitars - just as there seems to be no academic study of 'directionality' in audio cables, and probably for much the same sort of reason! As is the case with the 'tone wood' debate, discussion of such things seems to be more or less confined to enthusiast forums and the blurb of those with a commercial interest in the topic.

Even if 'tone wood' does have an effect, so what? If 'maple is brighter than mahogany', turning down the tone pot a fraction would make more difference. Similarly, electric guitars are so sensitive to changes in their circuitry that the supposed differences in tone between two instruments that are nominally the same could well be due to normal manufacturing variations the resistance of one of the pots.

Roland

Sassafras said:

Next we'll be saying the type of strings don't matter.

It wouldn't matter whether they do or don't. We'd still debate the subject. We all have a view, and we test and improve those views through discussion. As social beings beings we need reactions from others. Some people are so socially undernourished that they will sink to any level, and make themselves look really stupid, just to get a reaction. 

Three-ColourSunburst

I have been doing a lot of reading concernig the claim that the wood of a solid-body electric guitar can have a significant impact on the harmonic content of an already vibrating string. From what I have read so far there are a whole raft of reasons to believe that, if such harmonic variations did occur, they would be totally swamped by other factors.

Firstly, the string material itself imposes strong limitations on just which harmonics will sound with a stiff steel string supporting different harmonics to a supple silk or nylon strings, and as electric guitars always use steel strings the inherent 'twang' they have will persist, whatever the body they are strung across is made of.

The second major determinant of the harmonic content of the note is the player themselves, for example by means of varying the picking position.

Thirdly, in an acoustic instrument, once the string is vibrating almost all of what one actually hears depends on the way the structure of the guitar - and especially the thin wooden resonator of the sound board - responds to the energy of the string, along with the way it is amplified by the air in the instrument, which acts as a 'Helmholtz resonator'. In effect, the main role of the string is to energise the body of the guitar and the air within it, with the vibrations of these and the harmonics they support giving the instrument its characteristic timbre and tone.

A key point here is that the actual wood used, even in an acoustic instrument is, at best, of secondary importance, and is chosen no so much for its intrinsic 'tone', but its strength, flexibility and so on, much as the material of a speaker cone is selected for its flexibility rather than the intrinsic tonal quality of compressed paper. Good demonstrations of the way structure is primary are the many studies of the effect of bracing design on the sound of violins and guitars, and those guitars made out of old pallets by Taylor, who wanted to demonstrate that even if others built guitars from the same wood, Taylor's construction skills still produced a better guitar.

In comparison to the influence the string has on the body, the influence the body has on the string is limited, as even if certain harmonics were damped more quickly on one instrument as compared to another, these differences would likely be swamped by the initial harmonic content of the plucked note, the harmonics preferentially supported by the string material, the more rapid natural decay rate of the higher harmonics, and so on. Then there are the limitations of the human ear to discriminate changes in the amplitude of a given harmonic and the problem that people tend to 'hear with their eyes'.

Still looking for a definitive answer. I must be an optimist!

crunchman

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Similarly, electric guitars are so sensitive to changes in their circuitry that the supposed differences in tone between two instruments that are nominally the same could well be due to normal manufacturing variations the resistance of one of the pots.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to you as you obviously have your own ideas but for anyone else who is still reading it's definitely not purely down to the electrics.

I have two Strats.  One of them sounds brighter than the other unplugged.  Guess what it sounds brighter plugged in as well.

I've had the same with Les Pauls.  My previous one was much brighter unplugged than my current one.  It also sounded much brighter plugged in.

It isn't just whether they are bright or dark sounding - something that could be EQ'ed out.  Some guitars seem to sound more 'alive' than others for want of a better word.  Almost always, these ones also sound a lot more lively unplugged.

guitars4you

Sassafras said:

Next we'll be saying the type of strings don't matter.

don't wind anyone up more than they need