Body wood affects tone

Three-ColourSunburst

Glad to seer that this debate hasn't degenerated into the flame war I have read on other sites!

To continue the debate, has anyone ever tried fitting a Piezo pickup directly to the body of a solid body electric guitar?

I see that on solid body guitar Piezo pickups are - probably for good reason - fitted in the bridge, where they pick up pressure variations directly from the strings. With an acoustic a Piezo pickup can be fitted directly under the soundboard, and this location is held to give the most natural and faithful reproduction of the sound of the instrument.

Now, if the resonance of a solid body guitar really contributes to the overall sound the body would have to resonate in a way that is broadly analogous to the way the soundboard of an acoustic guitar resonates. For example, having a consistent response to all notes. So, if this is in fact the case surely a piezo pickup that was attached to the body would pick up this resonance?

I see three possibilities. 1) This will work, which would to some degree support the tone wood argument. 2) It wouldn't work at all or the signal would be very weak, as the resonance of the body is of too small an amplitude to be picked up. This would suggest that any 'tone wood' effect has, at best, only a marginal significance. 3) There is some response but this unbalanced, with notes that cause the body to resonate at its natural resonant frequency being picked up more clearly than others. Again, this undermines the 'tone wood' argument as solid body guitars generally sound pretty balanced, even if the odd 'wolf tone' or dead spot can be apparent.

Has anyone done this and what was the result?

Thanks!

Corvus

I used to miss DaLefty.

Three-ColourSunburst

impmann said:

Bottom line is  - yes it does affect the tone. If it didn't, Gibson and Fender would just be using the cheapest woods they could possibly find, sourced from anywhere in the world of any species.

But many woods used to build guitars have been selected for their availability and cost, add on customer expectation and tradition ('Les Pauls shouldn't have maple necks'), plus considerations such the structural characteristics of various woods, how easy they are to work and finish, and I would bet that the supposed 'sound' of a given species was the last thing on the manufacturers mind, especially in the early days of the solid body guitar.

Sassafras

Three-ColourSunburst said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

This is the rig I used for testing pickup potting techniques. 
wind a pickup under fairly low tension, leave it unpotted, remove the strings entirely ... then shout into the pickup ... it will work as a microphone ... a quiet one ... but it will amplify your voice.

But how about a properly wound and potted pickup? Yes, guitar pickups can be or can become microphonic, but isn't this generally seen as being a bad thing and a sign of a faulty pickup, with pickups being designed to avoid them being microphonic?

It seems that the fact that magnetic pickups can become microphonic is jumped on by those who believe that 'tone wood' makes a significant contribution to the sound of an electric guitar as it appear to offer a mechanism by which the vibration of the body can influence the signal. Thing is, for this to be true all pickups would have to be microphonic to a significant degree and I don't think that this is the case.

I have looked at some of the supposed 'proofs' that all pickups are microphonic on YouTube and so on and they are a bit of  a joke. For example someone shouting at their guitar body and noting that this (maybe...) produces a small amount of sound through their amp. However, the guitar used has strings fitted so any sound produced is most likely do to these resonating slightly, not the pickup itself.

Read @TheGuitarWeasel post again. He's answered your question and you're asking it again. I don't think you'll ever be satisfied unless the answer coincides with your own prejudice.

Three-ColourSunburst

Er, having just complimented everyone on keeping this debate civil, I now see that I have been accused of being someone called 'Moon'. Just to set the record straight, I know nothing of this person or their back story.

Gassage

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Er, having just complimented everyone on keeping this debate civil, I now see that I have been accused of being someone called 'Moon'. Just to set the record straight, I know nothing of this person or their back story.

I see we're now moving over to the dark side....

AustrianJohn

Kalimna said:

If this discussion was to be posted on a luthiery forum ..

You mean this isn't a luthiery forum? ;-)

Kalimna

Going by some of the comments, no it certainly isnt

Three-ColourSunburst

Gassage said:

A neck is effectively a trussed cantilever.

Anyone who claims that a cantilever is not capable of huge acoustic resonance knows absolutely fuck all about physics- structurally, they've more sine wave resonance than virtually any form of structure. An acoustic wave has been known to destroy cantlilevered cable tied bridge supports in minutes.

But no, according to @threenotesunburst, this is impossible.

I have argued nothing of the sort. What I am questioning is whether the body of a solid-body guitar, generating sound via electromagnetic pickups, can function in a way that is analogous to that of the soundboard of an acoustic guitar, and that this can be picked up and amplified by electromagnetic pickups.

MartinB

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Glad to seer that this debate hasn't degenerated into the flame war I have read on other sites!

To continue the debate, has anyone ever tried fitting a Piezo pickup directly to the body of a solid body electric guitar?

I have tried this, both with a piezo and with an AKG C411 contact mic attached in various spots on a solidbody bass.  You do get a signal, though it's not that musically useful.  It varies a lot with position but it generally has a nasal or boxy response a little like you were listening through a bandpass filter.  Closer to the bridge has a better chance of sounding more full-range and balanced. 
But contact pickups are very touchy on acoustic instrument soundboards too.  It is simply not the case that you can stick one anywhere on the soundboard and get something resembling the acoustic sound of the instrument.  Unless you place it close to the bridge (they are commonly attached to the underside of the bridge plate on acoustic guitars), it takes a lot of experimentation to find a spot with a pleasant, balanced tone without excessive resonances at one frequency. 

Ravenous

Three-ColourSunburst said:

I have argued nothing of the sort. What I am questioning is whether the body of a solid-body guitar, generating sound via electromagnetic pickups, can function in a way that is analogous to that of the soundboard of an acoustic guitar, and that this can be picked up and amplified by electromagnetic pickups.

What about an electric guitar with sympathetic strings, i.e. an electric harp guitar.  (Only ever seen pictures of one though.)

Or a double neck, playing on one neck but amplifying the pickups on the other.

But I'm not really sure what this will prove.  That unplayed strings will sound as the body vibrates?  That even happens on pianos...

57Deluxe

on the subject of does the body affect tone? - how about: do fat people make the guitar sound different to skinny people?

koneguitarist

I think some people on here mistake a difference of tone as being better or worse but sometimes it's just different. Whether that's down to quality of wood is highly debatable. More often it's down to thickness or stiffness of material not specific wood. I fitted a much fatter Maple neck to my tele, and thought it was a lot better. There are just too many variables to pin it on one thing. 
Quality of wood don't mean a thing to me, how well it's used and how well guitar is built does. 

Sporky

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Sporky said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

 There is no need for anything it is mounted to to flex. 

So you're claiming that guitars are entirely rigid?

Even though you can flex a guitar with your hand on the headstock?

No, (just as I wrote) I am saying that there is no need for the body of the guitar to flex in any way in order to produce the characteristic sound of the instrument.

So again, you agree that the body of the guitar is not entirely rigid?

Therefore the body, being not-entirely-rigid, will vibrate when the strings vibrate?

Therefore the pickups, being mounted to the vibrating body, will be moving relative to the ends of the strings, just as the middle of the strings moves relative to the ends of the strings?

Therefore the movement of the strings in the magnetic field around the pickups is comprised of both the motion of the strings relative to their endpoints and the motion of the pickups relative to the strings' endpoints?

You keep posting that you agree that the structure of the body will affect the sound, then claiming it won't.

Do try to reply without snipping out most of my post.

Gassage

I just had an in depth conversation with Andrew ex of Chandler, one of the best techs around.

His view is unequivocably yes it does affect hugely.

Lescaster

My opinion is that different body and neck woods do produce different tones. I do also believe that the general overall tone of certain species when looking at the average across a large sample do tend to go inline with the generalisations.

Three of my strats have different fretboard and body woods and when played acoustically and when plugged in do sound different and tend towards the generalisations.
 

Ravenous

I'm reminded of the Birdfish with those swappable timber "tonebars" to "tweak" the sound.  I wonder if they work?

http://www.teuffel.com/english/guitars/birdfish/tonebars.htm

koneguitarist

Gassage said:

I just had an in depth conversation with Andrew ex of Chandler, one of the best techs around.

His view is unequivocably yes it does affect hugely.

I think he is right, and wrong, sometimes is probably the answer and for various reasons. 
No two pieces of wood sound the same, no guitar sounds the same, so where is your starting point? 
To do this properly you need to take variables out of the equation, unfortunately you can't with a guitar as even the playing varies the tone. Also how you listen, do you mic it and record each change and listen back in blindfold test? 
But each body and neck are they treated the same, with no finish, what if the strings you put on were a different gauge to what the replacement neck last had, how tight is truss rod to cope with strings? Stiffness will have a bearing on tone, stiffer the neck less likely to have dead spots and lack of sustain. 

bacchanalian

Next thing someone will try to convince me that my tinfoil hat does not stop the Government reading my mind.

professorben

This reminds me of a recording a guy i used to work with in the music shop played to me. 

3 clips. 
Asked me to choose my favourite, they were French Horn solo sections. 

I picked my favourite much to his amusement. 

2 were vintage (read 1800's classic French Horns, the equivalent of a '59 Burst or pre CBS Strat) 
the 3rd was a length of hosepipe with a horn mouthpiece fitted.

Guess which I picked as having 'the fullest tone and resonance'