Scale length and tone Fender vs Gibson length and sounds?

John_P

I generally prefer the shorter Gibson and PRS scale length for the looser feel when playing but fancy making a tele style - how much of the twang comes from the length or is just down to woods and pickups?   
I’ve seen conversion necks for strats but do they still sound as stratty as a regular fender scale?  
I suspect the difference is marginal but I’d be interested to hear about any experience if anyone has experimented. 

Whitecat

It’s a combination of everything... case in point, the tone seems to soften when you go shorter... but then you pick up a Jaguar or a Mustang with a 24” scale and suddenly you’re back to twang central in some ways...

One place I notice the effect of 25.5” over and above the other stuff is on my Gretsch 6119. You can hear that “pop” in notes that has an ever-so-slight “Fender edge” to it despite the fact that it has virtually nothing else in common spec-wise with a “traditional” Fender instrument. The 24.6” Gretsches do soften a touch. 

Everything matters, and nothing matters...

Schnozz

Superstrats sounded a lot better than Les Pauls in 80s Metal, because of that 25.5" scale BITE!! I find ES335s the most comfortable to play, but neck profile affects me more than scale.

JezWynd

Interesting question. I've always gone for 25.5 scale, finding 24.75 to feel 'dead', lacking the spanky brightness of the Fender scale length.

ChrisMusic

Put a capo (or a finger) on the first fret, and haven't you just pretty much negated the extra scale length ?

ICBM

The actual scale length *by itself* doesn't affect the sound. But that would assume that everything else is exactly the same, which is impossible - firstly the string tension is affected. Secondly the position of every other component - especially pickups - is affected if they are not moved by exactly the same relative amount. (For example the pickups actually get closer to the nut, if you put a 24-3/4" conversion neck onto a Strat.) Thirdly things like the unsupported length of the neck changes its resonance.

And even more importantly there are plenty of factors which tend to be associated with the different scale lengths which are actually nothing to do with it but have a huge effect on the tone - eg 25.5" scale is usually combined with a bolt-on maple neck with a straight headstock and an ash or alder body, whereas 24.75" scale is usually combined with mahogany necks and bodies, and an angled head. All this is makes a much bigger difference.

It would be very interesting to build an exact 97% scale replica of a Strat with a 24.75" scale and every other part perfectly in proportion and see how it sounded, but as far as I know no-one ever has. I think building a Strat out of pure 'Gibson' materials with a glued neck has been done. There's a very simple experiment you can do, anyway - tune your Fender-scale guitar down to Eb and capo it at the first fret… instant 24"-scale guitar. See how different it sounds.

John_P

ChrisMusic said:

Put a capo (or a finger) on the first fret, and haven't you just pretty much negated the extra scale length ?

Yeah I could experiment with one of my guitars and see how I feel about detuning a semitone and if it loses the twang.  
 I don’t like playing that way but it would give a me a feel for the sounds I think.  

Garthy

ICBM said:

The actual scale length *by itself* doesn't affect the sound. But that would assume that everything else is exactly the same, which is impossible - firstly the string tension is affected. Secondly the position of every other component - especially pickups - is affected if they are not moved by exactly the same relative amount. (For example the pickups actually get closer to the nut, if you put a 24-3/4" conversion neck onto a Strat.) Thirdly things like the unsupported length of the neck changes its resonance.

And even more importantly there are plenty of factors which tend to be associated with the different scale lengths which are actually nothing to do with it but have a huge effect on the tone - eg 25.5" scale is usually combined with a bolt-on maple neck with a straight headstock and an ash or alder body, whereas 24.75" scale is usually combined with mahogany necks and bodies, and an angled head. All this is makes a much bigger difference.

It would be very interesting to build an exact 97% scale replica of a Strat with a 24.75" scale and every other part perfectly in proportion and see how it sounded, but as far as I know no-one ever has. I think building a Strat out of pure 'Gibson' materials with a glued neck has been done. There's a very simple experiment you can do, anyway - tune your Fender-scale guitar down to Eb and capo it at the first fret… instant 24"-scale guitar. See how different it sounds.

Jackson do a 24.75 Fusion which is identical to a 25.5 Dinky. They also sell a Mahogany Soloist although its a thru neck rather than a set neck although you could compare it to a maple/alder one.

Phil_aka_Pip

Gibson tone quality beats Fender any day, so if you want Gibson dimensions buy a Gibson, if you're perverse enough to go for Fender for any reason then God help you.

WezV

Scale length choice is fairly important to me.  I have spent a lot of time building with different lengths and fanned frets.  For me it’s all about the tension change you get from a longer scale.

best explained with a different example, the piano.   Vertically strung uprights sound very weak on the bass notes. A bit like a wet fart.  So overstrung pianos were invented.  This allows longer bass strings to go diagonally through the piano giving much better tension and a much stronger tone.  Okay, certain other elements had to change to make that work,and they will affect the tone too... but it’s clear the longer string length suits those bass notes better 

Scale lengths, string gauge and tuning are all ways you can affect the tension to get the tone, and the playability you want on a guitar    

robgilmo

I play both, and enjoy playing both, cant say I prefer either one over the other.

Danielsguitars

I built a set neck strat style with a 3 a side headstock in limba with a top loading hard tail bridge and it still sounded very stratty for want of a better word
I prefer short scale, it's what I've mostly played but I've been playing some more fender scale stuff and i do like the tone so now I'm thinking of building a short scale with fender hardware and pickups to see what that's like 
I've got a jazzmaster body cut now so maybe i'll try a short scale and strat trem with middle and neck but a different bridge pickup, not sure yet but it wont be traditional

I've also listened to some short scale strat you tube clips and they still sounded pretty much like a strat, definitely something I'll get round to doing just like a fender scale on a dc junior

TTBZ

I prefer the feel of short scale as I've got small hands and always played Gibson style guitars. That said recently I'm preferring the tuning stability and clarity of a Fender style, we tune down to D standard/drop C and it just seems better on a longer scale. 

guitarfishbay

TTBZ said:

I prefer the feel of short scale as I've got small hands and always played Gibson style guitars. That said recently I'm preferring the tuning stability and clarity of a Fender style, we tune down to D standard/drop C and it just seems better on a longer scale. 

You should be using comparatively thicker strings on the Gibson scale Guitars, probably a gauge up. I agree - but drop C can still feel and sound great on Gibson scale instruments IMO

WezV

TTBZ said:

, we tune down to D standard/drop C and it just seems better on a longer scale. 

my pet hate is drop C on a les paul.   I know many have made that work for them, but any time i have to play one i want to throw it on the floor in disgust.   It just about works with the right string gauge but its infinitely better on a longer scale - perfect on fanned frets

guitarfishbay

This is bassses but it might be of interest - 34” vs 35” on same model 

https://youtu.be/GahBiXLOuGQ

guitarfishbay

WezV said:

TTBZ said:

, we tune down to D standard/drop C and it just seems better on a longer scale. 

my pet hate is drop C on a les paul.   I know many have made that work for them, but any time i have to play one i want to throw it on the floor in disgust.   It just about works with the right string gauge but its infinitely better on a longer scale - perfect on fanned frets

I think they sound amazing in drop C with the right strings, fat and crunchy, not tight like a longer scale but it can be a great sound. Mines in drop B - I’d rather be in C# to be honest but I’m writing for a singer and not for my tastes in guitar tone, his range determines my tuning...

To be honest below B even 25.5” sounds poor IMO. Mostly because you need a really thick string, thicker they get the less attack they have and less they sound like they’re from the same set as the other strings.

I use a .064 which is right on the edge for me, I think a .060 sounds better but has less ideal tension.

WezV

like i say, i know some make it work.  I am not knocking those that make it work -  but i hate the way it feels
 
bare in mind i have 2  25-27" fanned frets and they spend most of their time in standard tuning

guitarfishbay

Yeah if you like that kind of feel I’m not surprised you dislike a 24.75” low C

WezV

guitarfishbay said:

Yeah if you like that kind of feel I’m not surprised you dislike a 24.75” low C

The thing I like is that the fanned fret guitars go from standard to an acceptable drop C with a fairly standard gauge.  

guitarfishbay

I’ve never tried a fanned fret. I’ve tried a bunch of 26.5” instruments and would rather sacrifice a little clarity on the low string than have the higher strings feel so tight, but a fan would in theory fix that. They’re not very common in shops though