Is USA made premium justitified?

Sassafras

I bet there are loads of people who'll swear blind their Chibsons are as good if not better than American Gibsons.

Chalky

darthed1981 said:

Chalky said:

Gotta love this place. Every time we have this topic it always ends the same:

There is no difference.
Its stupid people with too much money paying for a label.

Why are the stupid people also the ones with money?

To be fair, no one has said that.  Not yet anyway.

Also as with all luxury goods, someone normal can save up or max a credit card and someone rich can buy it casually, but neither situation explains the motivation of same, or the relative value for money.

You just categorised people as 'normal' or 'rich', which says a lot

You also mentioned 'value for money', which is irrelevant to whether a US guitar is better than a non-US guitar.

guitars4you

Many good valid points above

I think history rather than myth has a lot to do with this - Go back to the early days of the  electric guitar and anything of any quality was just about exclusive to the USA - Be it Europe or Asia and the quality was not a patch on the USA - So yes 'made in the USA' meant something

Today there are many fine builders throughout the world  - both with regard to companies of various sizes and luthiers (be it a one man or a team of 2 or 3) - There is no doubt whatsoever that many of these builders can match, or indeed beat the big USA names, when they want to match them regarding premium grade 'tone woods' and premium grade hardware/pick-ups etc - However I've played many guitars, from many builders, from many factories and countries that somehow just lack soul - Almost as though some are CAD/CAM designed and built - awesome build quality, but lacking character, passion and soul - Not all but certainly some, yet many of these can certainly match the big companies for price

We all know that budget based guitars are better today than ever before - But this OP is more about premium grade companies and builders with a made in the USA tag - So take Fender on its own at this point - They can make a Strat based guitar in different locations, at different price points, but as the price increases  from an Asian model to a Custom Shop model, then to many, so does the 'performance related aspects' of the guitar - A Custom Shop Replica Strat is effectively the same grade of guitar as an original pre-CBS model (I'm not saying one is better or more desirable at this stage) but as a replica, they go the nth degree to produce a guitar as good as those from the old glory days - So this is the original design and template of what a Strat is when we look at a 50's or early 60's model - So instead of asking why is  a Custom Shop Strat so expensive, the question should be 'what have they taken out to make it 'far more affordable' when we compare them to a Jap or Mexican model ?

Like it or not the big USA companies have a far better re-sale value  certainly on a like for like basis compared to similar guitars built elsewhere

Made in the USA on its own does not just mean quality - Gretsch have proven this with many MIJ models superior to the original 50's and 60's models and certainly those from the 70's - especially with regards to the actual attention to detail and build quality - Many purest will point out about the tone, character etc etc of an original example,but on the actual build quality it is pretty much a non contest of Jap v USA

I don't think there is one specific answer and don't have time to write a full essay regarding other aspects of this - But I recall a chat once with PRS himself about a similar topic - He effectively quoted that he could move himself, all his skilled luthiers, plus the relevant ' CNC machinery' etc from the USA factory  to Kathmandu , so with exactly the same 'tone' wood and components, he could build exactly the same premium grade guitar,  as those from Maryland - But would the public accept a 'premium grade guitar' if it wasn't built in the USA ?

Maybe a different process and thought plan for many one man luthiers, or small companies who effectively make one grade of product, but for many other companies there is a reason why one guitar is £400, one is £1400 and one is £4000 - And it is generally because something is 'taken out' to produce the budget version, rather than something added to make it more expensive - As as an overview and there are always exceptions, but you often find the difference between a £400 guitar and a £4000 is far less noticeable when you move up through the price points - Now play the 4K version and move back down to £400 and you'll notice more of a difference - IMO

Maynehead

I like ESPs, and I like Jacksons, but which is better?

...there's only one way to find out!

guitarfishbay

Maynehead said:

I like ESPs, and I like Jacksons, but which is better?

...there's only one way to find out!

Even the higher end LTD's can be very good, and typically come with all the aftermarket hardware people would typically want.

Plus they're not a company stuck in the past - they're one of the only companies factory installing Evertunes, and already have a bunch of models with Fishman Fluence pickups etc.

lasermonkey

I guess the only way you'd know for sure is if, for example, Fender made exactly the same guitar in the US, Mexico, Japan and China. I suspect they'd be much of a muchness, except for the end price. Whether Fender (again, for example)  actually makes exactly the same guitar in four different countries, I have no idea.
It'd be an interesting experiment though.

thegummy

I think I've mentioned this before; I remember reading a review comparing the cheapest American fender to a similarly priced Mexican and they said something like "for just a tiny bit more money you get a guitar made in America" and it really annoyed me that it was seen as a plus point in itself.

If the country would make any difference, then an American made one would be worse than the same priced guitar made abroad since the labour costs would mean there would need to be cuts in materials or loss of profit.

I just hate that some people believe someone's country determines how good they'll be at making guitars in a factory. It's archaic.

Teetonetal

guitarfishbay said:

Making a guitar is a learnable skill. Race doesn’t pose any barrier to that, though business can dictate where a company makes their ‘high end’ models.

Exactly. The finished product just reaches a level directed by the budget vs the cost of materials and workmanship.

Of course it's also possible to charge for things that make little difference (like relicing) and pretend they make a guitar more desirable.

Maynehead

guitarfishbay said:

Maynehead said:

I like ESPs, and I like Jacksons, but which is better?

...there's only one way to find out!

Even the higher end LTD's can be very good, and typically come with all the aftermarket hardware people would typically want.

Plus they're not a company stuck in the past - they're one of the only companies factory installing Evertunes, and already have a bunch of models with Fishman Fluence pickups etc.

Plus, I LOVE the new sculpted heels that the new LTD EC series have... that was the one thing that has prevented me from owning a LP style guitar in the past.

AFAIK none of the ESP eclipses have this yet.

bodhi

guitars4you said:

Made in the USA on its own does not just mean quality - Gretsch have proven this with many MIJ models superior to the original 50's and 60's models and certainly those from the 70's - especially with regards to the actual attention to detail and build quality - Many purest will point out about the tone, character etc etc of an original example,but on the actual build quality it is pretty much a non contest of Jap v USA

My Japanese-made Gretsch Panther is on par with anything Gibson Custom Shop I've ever owned, and I daresay even better in terms of attention to detail in build quality.  But then it was pitched as a high end model with a price tag to match.

Collings

I think we each have to make our own mind up.

For me the answer is yes.

I have been using PRS since the late 80's pretty much for all my gigging needs.

I have tried the SE models and they are fine guitars but if I compare a current core USA PRS with a current SE just based on build fit and finish for me there is still something the USA built guitar has that makes it worth the additional ££.

The difference might simply be in my head I guess but for me i,m happy to pay the premium even if the difference is not that great and obviously the law of diminishing returns applies as well.

thegummy

I wonder if sometimes people might like to think they've cheated the system or avoided a con and got the same guitar for 500 that others pay 1500 for.

It never is though, it just has to be decided if the compromises are things you'll be happy with to save money.

This is just talking mid priced vs expensive though, rather than country, some companies don't make their high end guitars in America even though the "big 3" do it that way.

Cols

It’s self-perpetuating.

Guitarists are notoriously hidebound creatures and will happily pay extra for a ‘Made in USA’ tag, because mojo.  Fender et al will happily play on this and charge premium rates for the US-built models.  

However, they realise that we’re not quite so stupid as to fork over hundreds or thousands of pounds extra for an identical guitar just because it’s got ‘USA’ written on it.  And making guitars in America is more expensive than elsewhere because it’s a high wage economy.

The guitar companies, therefore, carefully engineer in a quality differential.  The best timbers, electronics and hardware are reserved for US production in order to justify the premium price tag.

Quite simply, the same quality of guitar could be built elsewhere... but we wouldn’t pay the same premium.

darthed1981

Chalky said:

darthed1981 said:

Chalky said:

Gotta love this place. Every time we have this topic it always ends the same:

There is no difference.
Its stupid people with too much money paying for a label.

Why are the stupid people also the ones with money?

To be fair, no one has said that.  Not yet anyway.

Also as with all luxury goods, someone normal can save up or max a credit card and someone rich can buy it casually, but neither situation explains the motivation of same, or the relative value for money.

You just categorised people as 'normal' or 'rich', which says a lot

You also mentioned 'value for money', which is irrelevant to whether a US guitar is better than a non-US guitar.

If rich a term meaning better off than most was normal then they wouldn't be rich any more, they would be normal, normal in this context would mean the level of wealth the majority possess.

Which you know, as it's the only logical explanation for using those two terms so I'm not sure why you'd think it says anything at all?

57Deluxe

Rocker said:

57Deluxe said:

for playability - no
for resale-ability - yes

Too glib an answer my friend. If it were that simple. This is why you should always play the instrument before you buy. Could go either way but you will know......

...yes but you got an honest straightforward answer from the man who has NEVER played THE guitar that he has bought - ever! I might have played THE model then ordered one, but never THE one. As a result, I make any guitar work for me one way or another then find out later how good they stack up against others. 

I have not sold any of my guitars since 1973 and that was only to fund a brand new Fender Strat when I was 15...