Gibson about to go bankrupt after years of turning out instruments that often have poorer QC than many 'Chibsons'. Fender also having financial problems. Both offering more and more instruments at prices that are ludicrous given the cost of the materials and manufacturing costs involved, and both relying on milking the power of nostalgia and the brand name rather than doing anything truly innovative.
Compare the plight of Gibson to what is happening with the Harley Benton brand, who seem to be about to make a huge leap forward in terms of quality whilst still maintaining sensible prices. This video gives a really interesting look at how the brand is being developed and the realities of far-eastern manufacture. (With most of the big brands also using the same few factories that Harley Benton do.)
Whether you would be happy to play a Harley Benton or wouldn't be seen dead with a guitar without the 'mojo' that comes from having 'right' name on the headstock, I think anyone would have to admit they they really seem to know what they are doing and might well become a major brand in the future.
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I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you re. the business angle, but (personally), I haven't seen an Ibanez in years that I'd spend money on. Generic, generic, generic.
HarrySeven - Intangible Asset Appraiser & Wrecker of Civilisation. Searching for weird guitars - so you don't have to.
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HB are gaining a reputation for good value guitars- they can be very good (I play one as my main guitar, albeit a highly modded one). Yamaha have achieved this reputation already- good guitars, excellent for the money, but lacking in "personality" or "mojo".
I'd quite like to see someone do to Gibson what seems to have happened to Lamborghini- bought by someone (Audi) with the manufacturing technology but not the "kudos" now making excellent, reliable, well regarded and somehow retaining the "name".
True.
In a (maybe typically H7 Luddite) way, I do miss the days when model ranges were (very) limited to a few key models and options.
We now have vast contemporary range(s) of ultra-diverse, micro-differentiated (yet samey), Signature-model heavy, multi-price-point brands and sub-brands, all competing for smaller and smaller market shares.
It just bores me to death. Walking into any major dealer (PMT, guitar guitar, etc - or even just perusing manufacturer websites) switches me right off. Too much choice. Too many options.
HarrySeven - Intangible Asset Appraiser & Wrecker of Civilisation. Searching for weird guitars - so you don't have to.
Forum feedback thread. | G&B interview #1 & #2 | https://www.instagram.com/_harry_seven_/
True on the guitars, but some of the basses are ok. At the budget end of their range, I recently picked one of the short scale Talmans. I did seriously look at the some of the mid price (£600ish) basses a few months back. I have absolutely no desire to get an Ibanez guitar though.
Going back to the original point of the thread, if you look at the work that goes into the higher end Fenders and Gibsons, you could never build them to the same price as the Harley-Benton guitars. For Gibson, a fairer comparison would be with something like Maybach or Eastman. Their versions of a proper nitro finished Les Paul with a carved top are still well upwards of £1k.
There are corners cut on the Harley Benton range. To some extent there are corners cut on everything below Custom Shop level guitars. Having said that, there are more corners cut on a Harley Benton than on a Mexican Fender. A better comparison might be the Rob Chapman range. Their far Eastern range seems to be between the £400 to £1k price point. If Harley Benton do go upmarket, it will be into that market. Is a £1k Chapman as good as a £1.4k Fender American Pro? People will have different opinions. I know which one I'd prefer though - and it doesn't have an infinity symbol at the 12th fret.
As regards the original question, I guess certain brands will always be desirable simply because they were there from the beginning (with all the kudos that brings). Harley Benton will never be that unless they can bring something original and iconic to the party, but it does demonstrate that a decent guitar doesn’t have to cost high-end Fender or Gibson prices.
Some evidence of this for Fender: Look at the response to the Fender/Roland modelling Strat. It ended up being marketed by Roland instead of Fender, as Fender's consumers didn't seem to be interested in making such a radical departure from tradition. Or the 2014 American Deluxe Plus Strat with 'personality cards'. OK, if we put aside the awful name, the guitar offered the potential to rewire it's electrics in an instant by swapping out a card in the back. There was plenty of room to develop this, and integrate the idea with other models, but Fender quietly dropped it after about 18 months.
With Gibson, we probably don't have to look any further than the innovations of 2015! But Gibson do seem to want to be seen as innovators, and always have done, from the humbucker, through their relationship with Moog, right up to the present. Unfortunately, for a long time, their customers have only been interested in the same old traditional retro reissue of what they already have.
TBH, I feel a little sorry for them. Until I look at their prices... Of course, those prices represent the other side of the coin and the benefit they get from having such a strong brand.
It's different for brands that don't have a long history to live up to, or keep repeating. Reverend are a prime example, they can change a model, drop one, introduce a new one, and few of their customers get bent out of shape about it. Instead, they're open to checking out whatever is new.
Harley Benton? sounds like someone from a 90's beat em up arcade game.
Even with the huge range that Fender have, as far as I know I still can't get the spec I want though unless I go Custom Shop. I don't think there is a V necked, nitro finished, 7.25" board Tele in the range. Even from the Custom Shop I'm not sure there is an off the shelf version of it, and I might have to put in a custom order - especially if I decided I wanted it with a rosewood board.
Price chosen is a random number, it is being used for the purpose of clarity and is not referring to a specific HB model.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
There is still a big appeal in having Gibson, or Fender on the head stock. I'm not the kind of guy who needs designer clothes or anything, I didn't need to own a BMW or Audi. But for guitar it still matters. However, most of that is down to the nostalgia, because I grew up with those makes on the posters or the TV.
Problem is, I would not buy new from either company. Prices are too high in comparison with what you are getting in my opinion. There are big issues with quality in places, as we all know. I want to play a guitar before I own it, and all shops within an hour of me (will remain nameless) are complete jackasses. Noisy, unhelpful staff etc..etc...
Whereas using Facebook buying/selling, I've met some great people , sat and had a coffee for an hour and discussed all things musical. And saved a lot of money. It I don't like the guitar, there isn't much loss selling it again. This means I can still have the guitars I want, but in a nicer, cheaper way. The flipside is, it doesn't help either company at all.
Just my experience:
I own a fair few high end guitars from the likes of Fender, Gibson, PRS & Collings.
I recently bought an indonesian made Gretsch Streamliner archtop for the princely sum of 380 quid. The craftsmanship of this instrument is flawless and up there with the very best makers (something Gibson can only dream of IMHO).
If Harley Benton are using the same factory, they're onto a winner.
To be honest, I think a lot of Ibanez's prices are getting too high. For example, I would be tempted by the new AZ2402 in the tri-fade finish, but not at 2000 Euros, and I would probably be even less inclined to pay 1200 Euros for the Indonesian-made premium version which is made from basswood doesn't even come with a case.
You are right about both Harley Benton and Ibanez outsourcing the manufacture of their guitars. Ibanez's prestige line is made by Fuji-gen in Japan.
A Satriani/Vai obsessive acquaintance of mine - now in his mid Thirties - has great affection for the JS, JEM and Universe models. I appreciate the positive qualities of these designs but feel no love for them.
Being twenty years his senior, I look kindly upon the RS, RG, Blazer and some of the designs that appeared on the Ibanez product range wall posters of the late Seventies as the company made the transition away from being mere copyists.