Speaker search - 100 watt, American sounding, not too backbreaking?

camf

It's for a very nice Gartone Stageman 45, a 1x12 Super Reverb style amp but with upgraded transformers. I've tried a Jensen C12K, which is probably the top choice so far but it feels pretty chunky weight-wise. I've also rejected a reconed Celestion Century Vintage which although brought the weight down to acceptable levels, didn't sound as good and at 60 watts also feels a little under-powered for the amp, which was outputting around 60 watts when @ICBM had it on the bench. I'd been wondering about one of the Jensen Neos or an Eminence Swamp Thang (although also pretty heavy) but interested to hear if anyone else has any other suggestions... especially neo-style speakers or lighter weight ones at least.

Maybe I should just get wheels for it... or a trolley.

Thanks guys.

cam f

ThePrettyDamned

Heard a lot of good things about Eminence.  Apparently, the 'real ones' are USA made, but I'm not completely sure now... I always thought OEM was Chinese, 'real' was USA.  

The Swamp Thang is very powerful, and supposed to be very warm and fat.  The Maverick looks really interesting, has an attenuator built in?

I'm thinking of getting a Swamp Thang or Texas Heat in my bandit, should the standard speaker ever get knackered.  Seems fine so far though

ecc83

Peavey scorpion? 

Mind you, tho rated at 200W I had a buggered one in a Peavey 130Wper ch solid stater. 

The job was a nothing one which my son "kindly" found me. I fitted a spare Celly K100 but at 16R instead of 4. It was just a s loud as the scorpion in the other channel!

Dave.

Dave_Mc

Texas heat should be a little lighter than a swamp thang as it has the lighter magnet. Ditto the red white and blues. What type of american tone are you after? the lil texas is over 100W too, but I haven't tried it (and it would presumably be the lightest by some margin). Just be careful with eminence because their ratings are sometimes optimistic. ICBM can hopefully confirm, but if I knew I genuinely needed 100W coverage, I'd probably be looking at the 150W ones just to be safe (which would rule out the RW+B and the lil texas).

camf

Yep, I've been wary about Eminence speakers in general, given @ICBM's low regard for them. At his suggestion, I'm thinking about trying a G12T-75 and, ironically, maybe a Legend V128, which is the 120 watt version. Not sure how the V128 would sound in a blackface-style amp. 

ThePrettyDamned

Yeah that's true, I've heard celestion are the more trustworthy rated ones...

Dave_Mc

I think (I don't want to put words in his mouth) he doesn't just like the sound of them. I like the ones I've tried (and I also like celestion, tayden etc.) though actually my least favourite was probably the swamp thang ) I haven't tried a v12 in a blackface style amp but it wouldn't be my first choice. it's like a mellower v30. it'll probably kill your cleans. if you do want to go celestion you'd want (IMO) one of the less middy ones like a g12h30, classic lead, g12t75 or something like that. problem is, none of those are rated for 100W.

Personally (I should add, I haven't tried your amp, I'm just talking in general terms here) I'd rather use an american-voiced speaker with an american-voiced amp, but that's just me. Plenty of players like mixing and matching so it's up to you.

ICBM

I agree they're not terrible speakers, although I have reservations about both their claimed power ratings and sensitivity figures, from hard experience and comparing them to similarly-rated Celestions. To be fair, Jensens and to a lesser extent Fanes and some other brands are similar - if anything, it's Celestion who use the "wrong" ratings since they actually take far more true electrical power than they should - but that fits with the way musicians use amps .

I just don't like the sound of most Eminences - to me, they have a tight, slightly muffled sound I really can't get on with - even the models which are supposed to be 'equivalent' to well-known Celestions. They don't, they're stiffer and more middy/muddy or harsh.

I do like some, though - especially their bass drivers - the Delta and Kappa series in particular are excellent - and in the 1980s and 90s, they made some really great speakers for Fender, who put them in 'The Twin', the Super 60, and even in the Pro 185 and Ultra Chorus solid-state amps, and some others. They're so good I will actually buy these amps in dead condition as long as they have the original speakers, which are a huge upgrade for things like Hotrod Deluxes. The speakers are easy to identify because unlike almost all Eminences, they have vented magnets - look for a little grille in the middle of the magnet. There are two sizes of magnet as well... typically, the heavier ones sound better!

camf

Yep, at the moment, by general consensus, the good old Celestion G12T-75 is the front runner and rated at 75 (Celestion) watts it should cope fine with the Stageman. And at just over 7lbs, it's also not too much heavier than the Vintage Century that's it there at the moment.

DarnWeight

Jensen Tornado works well in Fendery situations...pretty close in tone to the Emi RWB already mentioned (I've used both).  Not overly bassy, very rich and smooth in the mids, good sparkle up top.  Not a 100dB+ efficiency monster either at 97-ish, which may be what you're after, maybe not.  I tried it and liked it very much in an Ampeg J20, but it's currently on weight-reducing duty in a Twin with another different neo, where it also sounds very nice indeed.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

I agree they're not terrible speakers, (a) although I have reservations about both their claimed power ratings and sensitivity figures, from hard experience and comparing them to similarly-rated Celestions. To be fair, Jensens and to a lesser extent Fanes and some other brands are similar - if anything, it's Celestion who use the "wrong" ratings since they actually take far more true electrical power than they should - but that fits with the way musicians use amps .

(b) I just don't like the sound of most Eminences - to me, they have a tight, slightly muffled sound I really can't get on with - even the models which are supposed to be 'equivalent' to well-known Celestions. They don't, they're stiffer and more middy/muddy or harsh.

(c) I do like some, though - especially their bass drivers - the Delta and Kappa series in particular are excellent - and in the 1980s and 90s, they made some really great speakers for Fender, who put them in 'The Twin', the Super 60, and even in the Pro 185 and Ultra Chorus solid-state amps, and some others. They're so good I will actually buy these amps in dead condition as long as they have the original speakers, which are a huge upgrade for things like Hotrod Deluxes. The speakers are easy to identify because unlike almost all Eminences, they have vented magnets - look for a little grille in the middle of the magnet. There are two sizes of magnet as well... typically, the heavier ones sound better!

(a) I agree. I haven't really tested their wattage ratings, but I know that their celestion-equivalents are normally rated for a much higher wattage (and I think on the old forum JPF (I think) said that they had fairly similar specs which wouldn't account for the wattage difference) which does make me wary of those ratings. I do agree on the volume thing, they normally don't seem that loud for their sensitivity ratings.

Not a massive problem as long as you're aware of it, but that's a fairly big assumption! I agree that it'd be much more useful to rate them in a real world way, like celestion does.

(b) I've liked pretty much all the ones I've tried (swamp thang I was a bit ambivalent on, but that might be more because I'm not really after than type of tone so much)- but based on the, er, one celestion equivalent I've tried (most of the ones i've tried have been from the patriot range), I'd agree they don't sound the same. They do seem to have a "family" type of tone.

(c) I haven't tried any of the older ones but I've heard you mention those older fender ones before )

Sessionman

I like the 75W Eminence Legend 1258 (a lot) and the Legend 1218 (150W) for a warmer,rounder 'Cropper' sound.

The  Legend 1258 is the same speaker, with a different 'retail' label, as the standard Fender 75W speaker with the brown/gold label.  Very loud, close to a G12T 75 and not too heavy.

The Celestion Classic Lead 80 is nice too... great all round speaker.

But recommending speakers is always a dangerous activity.  Someone who plays heavy rock will probably disagree and say they're c**p!  So we all end up none the wiser or totally confused.  Resultantly, the OP sits on the fence for the next year!  Lol

ICBM

I definitely wouldn't risk a 75W Eminence in a 60W amp - I've replaced plenty of dead ones in Hotrod Deluxes, which aren't even quite a true 40 watts. (camf's amp is a full 60W, clean.)

I completely agree with you about the Classic Lead 80 - one of Celestion's best and for some reason very overlooked speakers, but light it is not .

camf

Jensen Tornado now looking like the best option... £99 from Hotrox. Hmmm. Decisions, decisions....

Dave_Mc

I like the 1258 but I agree with ICBM that I wouldn't trust it with a too highly-rated amp. I also don't think it really sounds anything like a g12t75.

I agree the classic lead is nice.

Sessionman

ICBM said:

I definitely wouldn't risk a 75W Eminence in a 60W amp - I've replaced plenty of dead ones in Hotrod Deluxes, which aren't even quite a true 40 watts. (camf's amp is a full 60W, clean.)

I completely agree with you about the Classic Lead 80 - one of Celestion's best and for some reason very overlooked speakers, but light it is not .

OK, I'm surprised at your thoughts... but then I'm not a service man, so don't see the problems that you do.  I still like that speaker though.

ICBM

Sessionman said:

OK, I'm surprised at your thoughts... but then I'm not a service man, so don't see the problems that you do.  I still like that speaker though.

I'm not surprised, it's almost everything I hate . Very midrangy, no real sparkle, 'shouty' and 'jumpy', slightly harsh. (Like the guitar sounds I know you love! )

Just having a go - actually it's not *that* bad, and you can get a reasonable sound out of the amp with one in, but it's still far easier and you can get much better sounds (in my opinion) with almost any other speaker I've tried in them - other than a V30! Which I love in many amps, but is definitely the wrong choice in that one for all the same reasons. I do really think the stock speaker is one of the reasons behind the general belief that the Hotrod is very difficult to dial in at low volume though - it's all or nothing, which exaggerates the same problem with the amp's volume control taper.

The power rating assessment for Eminences is borne out of experience with many blown speakers - I'm fairly sure Eminence, like most speaker makers, rate their speakers for the electrical power input they can take. This is fine until someone doesn't realise that a distorted guitar or bass amp can put out up to double the amp's rated power. (ie musicians - although to be fair, why should they need to know? It's not illogical to assume that a "50 watt speaker" should be OK with a "50 watt amp".) Celestion ratings are much more conservative and there seems to be some evidence they were deliberately rated for "an amp of the given power", knowing that it may be overdriven - although some of the newer models seem less tough, so that may be changing.

Back in the days when I started fixing things there was the simple belief that Celestions were good and speakers like Fane and Goodmans were rubbish, because they blew so often - actually it was just that they weren't rated conservatively enough. Hiwatt actually knew this, which is why their 4x12"s with four 50W Fanes were labeled "150W" on the back not 200W, just so no-one got the idea that you could use one with a 200W amp. (Even then, the speakers often blew with a 100W Hiwatt going into one cab… but those amps can put out up to 140W clean and well over 200W distorted.)

The sensitivity ratings for Eminences are also optimistic - they presumably use a different method of calculating an average over the audio range. If you compare the "equivalent" Eminences to the Celestions they're supposedly based on, the Eminences are rated as much as 3dB more. This isn't true in reality if you compare the speakers - they're either about the same volume or in many cases slightly quieter. Just as an example, I recently compared an Eminence Legend V1216 (a claimed 100.9dB) with a Celestion Heritage G12H-30 (100dB), in the same amp - the Celestion was *much* louder, as well as subjectively far more responsive and dynamic. If I'd had to guess by ear, I would say the Celestion was 1 to 2 dB more sensitive than the Eminence, not the other way round.

Dave_Mc

Have you compared the actual eminence-branded 1258 to the one in the HRD? I only wonder because I'm always suspicious that OEM stuff isn't the same. My 1258 (which i bought as a speaker, i.e. not from a hot rod deluxe) has tons of sparkle and in fact that's why i really like it, some of my amps' clean tones could use a bit more sparkle. I also didn't think it was that midrangey (plus I only play at lowish volumes and it seems fine for that). I also think it handles distortion pretty well (though with an american voicing) yet I always thought the HRD's distortion tones were poor (and the one i tried with a v30 did improve them, i thought).

(a) This is fine until someone doesn't realise that a distorted guitar or bass amp can put out up to double the amp's rated power. (ie musicians - although to be fair, why should they need to know? It's not illogical to assume that a "50 watt speaker" should be OK with a "50 watt amp".)

(b) The sensitivity ratings for Eminences are also optimistic - they presumably use a different method of calculating an average over the audio range. If you compare the "equivalent" Eminences to the Celestions they're supposedly based on, the Eminences are rated as much as 3dB more. This isn't true in reality if you compare the speakers - they're either about the same volume or in many cases slightly quieter. Just as an example, I recently compared an Eminence Legend V1216 (a claimed 100.9dB) with a Celestion Heritage G12H-30 (100dB), in the same amp - the Celestion was *much* louder, as well as subjectively far more responsive and dynamic. If I'd had to guess by ear, I would say the Celestion was 1 to 2 dB more sensitive than the Eminence, not the other way round.

(a) Agreed. I like to know and it's nice to know, but you shouldn't *have to*. What's the point in ratings if they're useless?

(b) Agreed. The ones I've tried I thought the eminences, as you said, if anything were maybe even slightly quieter than the celestion equivalents, and even comparing totally different speakers which often had higher ratings, the eminence ones were quieter. A V12 is noticeably quieter than a v30, for example, yet is rated higher; the gb128 is rated way above a greenback and I didn't notice much difference in volume, if any.

camf

Thanks for all the responses... interesting stuff. Just wondering if anyone else has tried the Jensen Tornado? I see Hotrox also has the original Jensen Neo 12-100 at the same price but I can't find much in the way of head-to-head comparisons. Anybody compared them both?

cam

Dave_Mc

Nah I haven't, sorry. I've tried very few of the Jensens, unfortunately

camf

Jeez... I'm now swinging towards the Eminence Lil' Texan, which is rated at 125 watts so even with their power rating should be plenty for the Stageman's 60 watts. 

So, from what I've read, the top three in rough order at the moment:

Jensen Jet Tornado (Seems very warm but my slight worry is that it might be a bit bass-light) rated at 100 watts

Eminence Lil' Texan (marginally the lightest but also marginally the more expensive and might be even lighter in the bass) 125 watts

Jensen Neo 12-100 (tight low end but with a midrange bump, although not as pronounced as a V30) 100 watts

I realise this is pretty boring for most people but I'm sure there must be some people interested in knocking some of the weight off a chunky BF/SF Fender-style amp that might appreciate the research.