Gibson warning video over trademark infringements

guitars4you

crunchman said:

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Given US labour costs and other overheads, it would be hard to make Gibsons at the same price point as some of the Chinese stuff.  I think people would be willing to pay some kind of premium for the name though - if the quality was there.  The quality isn't there all the time though.

The problem for Gibson is that the hole Henry dug them with his ridiculous corporate-growth-built-on-debt strategy is far deeper than the one Norlin left them in. They simply can't afford to reduce prices or seriously invest in QC improvement if it's not simple steps which have very little cost, even though it's what the majority of their buyers are crying out for - and even if they did and people started buying them in vast quantities, they would mostly increase turnover rather than profits. Worse, with the internet and the rise of alternatives at the high end - which barely existed in 1981 - many of the people who would pay high-end prices are looking elsewhere. So all they have left is the small number who *must* have a Gibson - or in fact, many Gibsons - at any price... and try to squeeze all their income out of them.

Wasn't a lot of that debt written off by the Chapter 11 bankruptcy?

Are they not still in Chapter 11 - I believe it is because the court/judge has not accepted the % in the $ that the new regime has offered to pay to the outstanding 'suppliers' - From what I can determine you can trade like this for a long while

darthed1981

Rabs said:

tony99 said:

But they lolled me Rabs, they lolled me soooo bad

Ignore it...  I think "they" did that to me for at least my first 18 months on here.. I now just think its funny.. All they are doing is adding to your fret score 

I lol'd that, please lol this so we can be fret whores together

JD50

Remember when Gibson made a Strat

https://reverb.com/news/remember-when-gibson-tried-to-market-a-hendrix-signature-strat

pmbomb

I simply don't understand the reason for the video published on a consumer-oriented channel. What was the upside they saw? Who benefits?

The Dean suit pre-dated the video anyway, and they didn't need to publish a video to chase other manufacturers.

I have 2 Gibsons, both S/H but still in the value chain because S/H prices support new prices, and I am to a degree a "brand ambassador" as we all are

Yet as a customer,  one of the people they need more than anyone, I feel like their pointy gaze is resting on me too. It's creepy, discomfiting.

I really like the singlecut form factor (and quite like the V too) but I'm pretty sure now my next purchase won't be a Gibson.

You broke it guys. Why did you do that? What good did you expect to happen?

p90fool

I don't see why a crappy video made by some bunch of suits in a large corporation should make anyone reject the guitar they're holding in their hands.

The Gibsons I own have not suddenly become crap overnight, and neither have the ones in the shops. 

Some people need to get a grip on priorities, and also to remember that the vast majority of guitar players, musicians and songwriters will never watch videos made by a guitar manufacturer's legal department and have zero interest in doing so. 

DefaultM

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

ICBM

crunchman said:

Wasn't a lot of that debt written off by the Chapter 11 bankruptcy?

I think the whole point of Chapter 11 is that it's not bankruptcy, it allows for reorganization of debts. It's if it doesn't work and is converted to (I think) Chapter 7 that the company is then bankrupt and debts written off. Even if some of the debt has already been written off they're still in a deep hole.

crunchman

p90fool said:

I don't see why a crappy video made by some bunch of suits in a large corporation should make anyone reject the guitar they're holding in their hands.

The Gibsons I own have not suddenly become crap overnight, and neither have the ones in the shops. 

Some people need to get a grip on priorities, and also to remember that the vast majority of guitar players, musicians and songwriters will never watch videos made by a guitar manufacturer's legal department and have zero interest in doing so. 

There has been widespread awareness of this.  I've seen this come up on Facebook in a gear group with nearly 30,000 members.  I'm sure there are other groups I'm not in.  That's not to mention places like TGP.  There will probably be hundreds of thousands of guitarists that are aware of this now.

They have shot themselves in the foot.

tony99

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

darthed1981

tony99 said:

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

I just remember him in Tennis gear at Wimbledon, how things have changed.

OilCityPickups

tony99 said:

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

It was the jacket's fault ... it was manipulating him. Bad, naughty and evil jacket!

DefaultM

tony99 said:

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

...*psssst* when you're trying to argue that people are bullies you shouldn't really imply they're fat. Then it's you that's the bully.

tony99

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

...*psssst* when you're trying to argue that people are bullies you shouldn't really imply they're fat. Then it's you that's the bully.

I'm doing what Gibson did, defending my corner...by any means necessary

JayGee

tony99 said:

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

...*psssst* when you're trying to argue that people are bullies you shouldn't really imply they're fat. Then it's you that's the bully.

I'm doing what Gibson did, defending my corner...by any means necessary

And making a poor choice of hill to die on...

NelsonP

I think there is a massive difference between:
i) a legal department in one company sending a cease and desist letter to the legal department in another company, confidentially.
ii) Making a video and posting it online saying "We're coming after you fu**ers. Yep, every single last one of you that might have knowingly or unknowingly impinged on one of our trademarks. Be afraid".

The second one is just scare mongering, in the hope that they won't then need to follow up with expensive legal proceedings with each and every small builder who has ever made something remotely Gibson-ish. It is also bully tactics.

I assume they were hoping that this would be an effective deterrent. However, it just made them look like arseholes. I guess they realised this pretty quickly, which is probably why they took the video down.

I've said this before, but Agnesi is just the puppet here. I think the management now owe it to the guitar buying public to come out into the open (as they made Agnessi do) and explain themselves. JC is not exactly media shy. I'll even start his speech for him....

"Sorry folks, we've messed this up big time and want to put things right. We thought this was a good idea because........"

Philly_Q

@Tony99 are you deliberately playing devil's advocate here?

guitars4you

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Wasn't a lot of that debt written off by the Chapter 11 bankruptcy?

I think the whole point of Chapter 11 is that it's not bankruptcy, it allows for reorganization of debts. It's if it doesn't work and is converted to (I think) Chapter 7 that the company is then bankrupt and debts written off. Even if some of the debt has already been written off they're still in a deep hole.

it is another side of the story - Whilst Gibson are defending their trademark and still operating within a Chapter 11 safety net, they are not under obligation to pay their old debts to their old/existing suppliers - To exit Chapter 11 they will have to an agree a deal with the courts/judge regarding what is an acceptable payment - As such many companies will be out of pocket 

 Some suppliers will probably have to take on additional borrowings, to stay afloat, whilst waiting for an offering from the new Gibson company - The final payment will be lower than goods invoiced

Looks like Gibson want to have their cake and eat it

Dan_Halen

crunchman said:

p90fool said:

I don't see why a crappy video made by some bunch of suits in a large corporation should make anyone reject the guitar they're holding in their hands.

The Gibsons I own have not suddenly become crap overnight, and neither have the ones in the shops. 

Some people need to get a grip on priorities, and also to remember that the vast majority of guitar players, musicians and songwriters will never watch videos made by a guitar manufacturer's legal department and have zero interest in doing so. 

There has been widespread awareness of this.  I've seen this come up on Facebook in a gear group with nearly 30,000 members.  I'm sure there are other groups I'm not in.  That's not to mention places like TGP.  There will probably be hundreds of thousands of guitarists that are aware of this now.

They have shot themselves in the foot.

True, but will it make any difference when the the dust settles? Gibson seemed like a bunch of dicks before this video and, hey ho, following this video they still seem to be a bunch of dicks. They were selling guitars by the lorry-load pre-Agnesi and, by all accounts, at least the new range of guitars seem to be much improved and are flying off the shelves. So what's actually changed?

Is there anyone here who was actually going to buy one, not maybe considering in the future but genuinely about to pull the trigger, who is now not going to and will buy another brand instead? Is this video actually the straw that broke the camels back for anyone?

I just think that, as people managed to get over the fact that Gibson had become a classic corporate entity with scant regard for the loyalty of their customers before, it won't make one bit of difference. They seemed to be trying to head in a new direction PR-wise but, shock horror, they're still dicks. I could not be less surprised if I tried.

DefaultM

tony99 said:

DefaultM said:

tony99 said:

Bellycaster said:

tony99 said:

Gibson a pretty easy target now eh? wish people would just lay off them, they're obviously hurting from all this

Yep, a public relation disaster like that should garner so much sympathy. They're only hurting from their own stupidity. How on Earth did they expect that to go down?

I know mate, and it's fair enough, But let's face it, everyone makes mistakes, and the way people are piling into them now is unnecessarily kicking someone while they're down.

It's bullying basically.

Its not bullying to stand up to a bully. It's not like Gibson were going about trying to rebuild their business and someone came along and started an unprovoked malicious campaign against them.
 
They posted some weird often nonsensical video, where some guy in a leather jacket tried to be all mafia. "Ayyyy you better play authentic, ya hear me? Or else we's gonna get you. Don't you be putting no tape on those headstocks either! We wanna work with you. We can climb in to bed together. All nice and intimate".

Love the way the leather biker jacket has caused so much of the backlash.

Almost as if some people haven't got the cajones to do what Agassi did and rock the shit out of their own leather.

Jealous much? Yeah well just leave yours in the wardrobe eh, sure you'll fit back into it one day.

Shit, I didn't even notice you called him Agassi.
Let's pretend I did and my reply was as follows:

"Good point. You really served up an ace with that response".

NelsonP

darthed1981 said:

I just remember him in Tennis gear at Wimbledon, how things have changed.