Rosewood on Fenders

thegummy

Has anyone heard anything since the CITES change that gives an idea whether Fender will be switching back to rosewood from pau ferro on their entry level models (Player/Mexican Standard) next year?

Whitecat

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/173896/pao-ferro

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/173937/rosewood

guitars4you

Of course it depends on how much stock they have in the system - Long term, no issues with pao-ferro - There is good rosewood and cheap rosewood, so don't assume the word 'rosewood' means quality - Personally I see no issue and reason for Fender to change - Supply, demand and pricing will come into play

thegummy

It's not that I think rosewood means better quality, I just keep hearing that pf isn't as soft as rw and that's why I'd want rw in the first place.

chris78

If you can feel or hear the difference, you’re better than I am. My only bugbear with pf is the light streaky shit they use on Mexican models

impmann

thegummy said:

It's not that I think rosewood means better quality, I just keep hearing that pf isn't as soft as rw and that's why I'd want rw in the first place.

Why do you want a soft wood on your fingerboard?

Funkfingers

Pau Ferro is a perfectly good wood for constructing electric guitars (and Chapman Sticks!). The only thing “wrong” with it is that it is not what we are accustomed to seeing on certain all-time classic designs.

When CITES bit hard, Fender made it clear that rosewood would continue on their up-market instruments but be substituted with other species anywhere it was not deemed essential. 

The usual arguments for a particular fingerboard material are how it feels to the touch and its effects on overall tone. Similar arguments rage over varnish versus oiled wood.

As a RIC 4001 owner, I can vouch for the fact that it is possible to have rosewood AND varnish without sufferIng any disastrous consequences. (On bass guitar, fingers come into contact with the strings rather than the board.)

thegummy

impmann said:

thegummy said:

It's not that I think rosewood means better quality, I just keep hearing that pf isn't as soft as rw and that's why I'd want rw in the first place.

Why do you want a soft wood on your fingerboard?

Not sure if you were doing an innuendo thing or serious question but I'm very glad you asked - the reason I wanted to try rosewood was because I thought that a softer, spongy fretboard would feel different when the string was pressed in to it than a hard maple fretboard.

But after reading your question I checked and found that the strings never actually touch the fretboard anyway so it's a moot point on that aspect.

Just need to think now about how either of the darker materials feel when my fingers touch it now and then as well as if I like the look of PF enough compared to RW.

cj73

...and mittens on kittens..

thegummy

cj73 said:

...and mittens on kittens..

hahaha

impmann

thegummy said:

impmann said:

thegummy said:

It's not that I think rosewood means better quality, I just keep hearing that pf isn't as soft as rw and that's why I'd want rw in the first place.

Why do you want a soft wood on your fingerboard?

Not sure if you were doing an innuendo thing or serious question but I'm very glad you asked - the reason I wanted to try rosewood was because I thought that a softer, spongy fretboard would feel different when the string was pressed in to it than a hard maple fretboard.

But after reading your question I checked and found that the strings never actually touch the fretboard anyway so it's a moot point on that aspect.

Just need to think now about how either of the darker materials feel when my fingers touch it now and then as well as if I like the look of PF enough compared to RW.

It was a genuine question, mate.  

As you say, the string shouldn't touch the fingerboard much if at all, therefore the softness or otherwise of the fingerboard really shouldn't matter. What does make a difference is how the fingerboard is finished - a lot of maple boards have a glossy finish which can feel sticky when bending strings, whereas the slightly drier feel of rosewood suits other players. 

It may be worth trying a scalloped fingerboard, in case that suits your playing - its an acquired taste but I have a couple of friends who swear by them... its not my bag, though!

Strat_a_tat_tat

cj73 said:

...and mittens on kittens..

Pure class!

ICBM

In my opinion the hardness of the fingerboard does matter, because the frets are mounted in it and it changes the way the strings vibrate, especially on the note attack - that’s why ebony has a noticeably brighter, zingier sound. Pau Ferro is somewhere in between rosewood and ebony - it feels more like rosewood but sounds more like ebony in my opinion. (Generalisation - individual pieces can vary quite a lot.)

Interestingly I hear much less difference between rosewood and maple - which popular wisdom says are quite different - than between rosewood and Pau Ferro or ebony... or perhaps not so surprising when you look at the hardness, as maple is closer to rosewood.

thegummy

ICBM said:

In my opinion the hardness of the fingerboard does matter, because the frets are mounted in it and it changes the way the strings vibrate, especially on the note attack - that’s why ebony has a noticeably brighter, zingier sound. Pau Ferro is somewhere in between rosewood and ebony - it feels more like rosewood but sounds more like ebony in my opinion. (Generalisation - individual pieces can vary quite a lot.)

Interestingly I hear much less difference between rosewood and maple - which popular wisdom says are quite different - than between rosewood and Pau Ferro or ebony... or perhaps not so surprising when you look at the hardness, as maple is closer to rosewood.

Going by this I think I must have the wrong idea about which materials are softer than others.

I thought the order of hardness was maple and ebony being the hardest (I don't know if either of those are harder than the other) then pau ferro is softer then rosewood is softer still.

Is that not the case?

ICBM

thegummy said:

Going by this I think I must have the wrong idea about which materials are softer than others.

I thought the order of hardness was maple and ebony being the hardest (I don't know if either of those are harder than the other) then pau ferro is softer then rosewood is softer still.

Is that not the case?

No - maple is the softest (typically 1450 for most types of hard maple), then most varieties of rosewood (1780), then Pau Ferro (2400), then ebony (3220) being the hardest, on the Janka scale.

https://www.bestbassgear.com/ebass/ideas/wood-hardness-chart-bigger-better-more-woods.html

(Pau Ferro is listed as Bolivian Rosewood there.)

Kittyfrisk

Hopefully helpful.

From the Janka wood hardness scale http://tonewooddatasource.weebly.com/technical-data.html

Macassar Ebony              3220
Rosewood                        1450
Sugar Maple                     1450
Hard Maple                       1450

So ICBM is correct... again  

fendergibson

In my mind it’s all about how dark the fretboard is. If I want rosewood I want it dark, Pau Ferro is almost light red and not what I want on a classic Strat/Tele/LP neck

thegummy

ICBM said:

thegummy said:

Going by this I think I must have the wrong idea about which materials are softer than others.

I thought the order of hardness was maple and ebony being the hardest (I don't know if either of those are harder than the other) then pau ferro is softer then rosewood is softer still.

Is that not the case?

No - maple is the softest (typically 1450 for most types of hard maple), then most varieties of rosewood (1780), then Pau Ferro (2400), then ebony (3220) being the hardest, on the Janka scale.

https://www.bestbassgear.com/ebass/ideas/wood-hardness-chart-bigger-better-more-woods.html

(Pau Ferro is listed as Bolivian Rosewood there.)

That's pretty much blown my mind, I really thought that maple was the hardest, I wonder why I thought that.

I wonder if the maple boards being varnished and the rosewood ones not has been part of what made me think the maple was harder.

Glad to have such knowledgeable people here as well as questioning people, I'd never have known this if I wasn't questioned on why I wanted the rosewood board.

ICBM

Kittyfrisk said:

So ICBM is correct... again  

I'm just good at looking things up .

Kittyfrisk

fendergibson said:

In my mind it’s all about how dark the fretboard is. If I want rosewood I want it dark, Pau Ferro is almost light red and not what I want on a classic Strat/Tele/LP neck

Aye, it's all about the looks, less about the facts.
Still, we all do it to a degree 

ICBM

fendergibson said:

In my mind it’s all about how dark the fretboard is. If I want rosewood I want it dark, Pau Ferro is almost light red and not what I want on a classic Strat/Tele/LP neck

I'll post this again...



Both of those are Pau Ferro.