Non-musicians understand and feel music in a lot more detail and complexity than we realise...

Sassafras

Considering musicians mostly play for non-musicians, you might as well listen to what they have to say about your music, good or bad.

Philly_Q

axisus said:

I'm not that sure I agree. I think that you are describing a talent that just some people have, like most talents. I have nothing of what you are talking about personally. Most non-musicians I have met in life have no clue about music other than they 'like' something.

Just my current uneducated opinion. happy to be proved wrong ....

TheOtherDennis said:

Whilst I agree that generally people can tell when something is 'off' - witness them screw their faces up when someone hits a duff note - and can feel and hear more in music than they themselves appreciate, I agree far more with @axisus that they can't do what the OP can. I know I certainly can't, not even remotely, and I've been playing for quite a few years. I'd absolutely love to be able to do that, but I can't.

Likewise.

Maybe we should have an alternative thread called "Some musicians understand and feel music in a lot less detail and complexity than other musicians realise..."

(Not that I would ever dare to describe myself as a musician, incidentally)

Tex Mexico

TheOtherDennis said:

Like @Tex Mexico I struggled mightily to learn the guitar when I was younger, because I was utterly unable to tune it, for exactly the same reasons that he has. When I was a kid, my dad tried to teach me to tune the guitar using the piano, but I simply couldn't match the note from the keyboard with the note on the string.

I think you may have misread me - I've had perfect pitch since childhood so ironically tuning a guitar without a reference was one of the first things I picked up. I was saying that I was more musically inclined than my peers from a young age, which my parents encouraged.

I did struggle with the discipline of learning an instrument, but that was mostly because my parents hired me a Spanish guitar teacher - I can't remember if they thought it was because they wanted me to learn "proper" guitar or just because he was the only one available - but either way I achieved nothing with him because I wanted to play rock. Only after the lessons were discontinued did I realise I could just teach myself, so I did, and made more progress in a month jamming along to heavy metal records than I did in a year of that poor guy trying to teach me how to fingerpick flamenco.

I'm not blowing my own trumpet (pun intended), I wouldn't say I'm unusually talented and I can't, for example, read music, but I'm fairly confident that once I hit my stride, predisposition carried me through my first few years of music far more than hard work. Before I was eighteen I could play a half-dozen instruments and I'd self-taught production and sound engineering so I could make my own records. I'm a spectacularly lazy individual so again I credit most of that to natural ability rather than any kind of graft or persistence.

TheOtherDennis

@Tex Mexico In which case, I apologise.

Especially as I'm precisely the opposite to you. No natural ability whatever. I can tell notes apart, even very close ones, but I don't have perfect pitch at all, and I can only 'play' guitar because of the work I've put into it.

Tex Mexico

TheOtherDennis said:

@Tex Mexico In which case, I apologise.

Especially as I'm precisely the opposite to you. No natural ability whatever. I can tell notes apart, even very close ones, but I don't have perfect pitch at all, and I can only 'play' guitar because of the work I've put into it.

None required at all. I think it's more admirable when people put the work in to achieve what they set out to do, especially when it's against the odds. I'm just lucky, not that I've made a fortune or even a living out of it - frankly I've wasted quite a lot of my potential. As it is we probably enjoy equally the fruits of our musical endeavours, but I kind of feel like you deserve it more, if that's not a weird thing to say?

Seziertisch

Similarly, a lot of non- or very inexperienced musicians make music which is a lot more interesting and creative than that made by “better” musicians

p90fool

Sassafras said:

Considering musicians mostly play for non-musicians, you might as well listen to what they have to say about your music, good or bad.

Definitely, it was a real eye opener recently for me when I played a finished track to a friend after having spent a lot of effort crafting a tense, atmospheric intro to a song. 

The first thing she said was "I got bored waiting for the singer". 

There's now a version called "Hannah's Radio Edit".

LastMantra

Some people "understand" and "feel" music (whatever that means!) some don't have any interest.

Tex Mexico

p90fool said:

Sassafras said:

Considering musicians mostly play for non-musicians, you might as well listen to what they have to say about your music, good or bad.

Definitely, it was a real eye opener recently for me when I played a finished track to a friend after having spent a lot of effort crafting a tense, atmospheric intro to a song. 

The first thing she said was "I got bored waiting for the singer". 

There's now a version called "Hannah's Radio Edit".

That however might be an argument to the contrary.

What I do know about the average punter is they have limited patience for anything that isn't immediate or hooky (basically that doesn't open with the chorus).

"Music for musicians" is a mild insult commonly aimed at songs that run to over four minutes or don't have vocals throughout or have odd signatures or atonal chord changes or Geddy Lee on bass. Although there's in fact loads of non-musicians who are into it, prog or whatever you want to call it is thought of as a niche interest which only appeals to people who understand and  are impressed by formal technicality.

But as the saying goes, a camel is a horse designed by committee. No offence to Hannah, but you can either take her opinion that the vocals come in too late as a reason to change the song, or conclude that in this instance your musical vision isn't for her.

However much non-musicians expect me to listen to the Gallaghers fart out their four-chord bollocks day in, day out, I don't try to get them into Tool, even though it's objectively amazing music, because they'll turn their noses up at it.

Freebird

Having an in-depth knowledge about the structure of music is a curse when it comes to listening for enjoyment.

p90fool

@Tex Mexico I agree fwiw, I used to "run it past" the client a lot in my earlier days, only for them to make stupid suggestions I'd have to spend time implementing just to prove it wouldn't work, so I'm aware of the design committee problem. 

This particular Hannah is keen and knowledgeable, but as you say, the genre is not particularly to her taste so the final version is still my version. 

I still value her input though, her being one of those whippersnappers who consumes huge amounts of music all the time on earbuds, something I've never done. 

TheOtherDennis

Tex Mexico said:

TheOtherDennis said:

@Tex Mexico In which case, I apologise.

Especially as I'm precisely the opposite to you. No natural ability whatever. I can tell notes apart, even very close ones, but I don't have perfect pitch at all, and I can only 'play' guitar because of the work I've put into it.

None required at all. I think it's more admirable when people put the work in to achieve what they set out to do, especially when it's against the odds. I'm just lucky, not that I've made a fortune or even a living out of it - frankly I've wasted quite a lot of my potential. As it is we probably enjoy equally the fruits of our musical endeavours, but I kind of feel like you deserve it more, if that's not a weird thing to say?

Very kind of you to say so, but you haven't heard me play yet! I'm sure you're a much better musician than I am, most musicians are, to be fair.

And I wouldn't worry about "wasting" your potential. You chose to do other things with your life than try to be a professional musician. Who knows how that would have turned out? Who's to really say that you haven't done better the way you are?

Anyway, we're straying off topic now.

GuyBoden

40-50 years ago at least one member of a family circle played a musical instrument to a reasonable level, so was able to play at least a few popular tunes. It wasn't a big deal then, it's not that difficult now, but most people haven't got the time.

thegummy

p90fool said:

When I've nearly completed a song in my studio I have a couple of non-musician friends I run it by to see what they think. They're both mid-20s and keen and knowledgeable about music but have no technical knowledge about how it's made. 

Their input is always far more useful than any from my musician friends. 

That's an excellent point.

I think some musicians have a tendency to think things that are harder to play or more complex are better than things that are easy to play or simple.

But in reality the easier thing might be better and often is. The non musicians won't even know how difficult a part is to play, they only know if it sounds good.

It's never more true than with bass; imo there's a general rule that impressive bass playing is generally worse for the music than easy. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions.

Sassafras

I like to play stuff that people will actually listen to enthusiastically.

bodhi

gordiji said:

The hard part is expressing what you hear in your head through your fingers.

It happens quite often to me that just before I fall asleep my brain makes up killer riffs, but I never quite seem able to recreate them on the guitar (if I actually remember them by the next morning, that is).

HCDavies

In my experience if you say to someone who doesn't play "Listen to this?" and press play on a computer or whatever, their reaction is very different, to saying the same words and picking up your guitar and producing the same sounds. 

Even if they don't like the music your playing particularly. If you are producing it before their eyes, ears, they seem more likely to be drawn in. 

On the learning music side mentioned, those in the UK may of seen Stewart Copeland Adventures in Music shown earlier this year. I recorded it and in 1 episode it shows his very young grandson (whatever) singing ABC123, despite only being able to say mamma and dadda. Now clearly from a musical family, but for a 1 year old!

thegummy

gordiji said:

The hard part is expressing what you hear in your head through your fingers.

I'm actually far better at that than any technical guitar playing skill and I must say I'm glad about it.

It's because I already played a different instrument for a long time before moving to guitar but I'd say to anyone learning guitar who also wants to write their own music that this is far more important than any technical skill.

The ability to do it can be improved through ear training and transcribing songs.

thecolourbox

Sassafras said:

I like to play stuff that people will actually listen to enthusiastically.

I on the other hand am a totally self absorbed narcissist, as I no longer care if people like my music as long as I like it

thegummy

Tex Mexico said:

What I do know about the average punter is they have limited patience for anything that isn't immediate or hooky (basically that doesn't open with the chorus).

I think that's one reason why it's fairly common for a band to have their first hit album be more radio friendly then go on to make more proggy stuff - when people are checking out one of the million available artists to see if they're good they might not have the patience for a 2 minute instrumental intro but if they already like the band they will be more prepared to listen to it.

By the way, there's no such thing as objectivity when it comes to how good music is. Music can be objectively complex but not objectively good. For example, I much prefer Oasis to Tool but also Rush are one of my favourite bands. Whether I enjoy music or not doesn't correlate with how complex it is.