Guitar vs Amps Prices - Guitar Manufacturers are Taking the Mickey

bananaman

chrisj1602 said:

You’ve compared a standard production amp to a Masterbuilt Strat though. Why not compare to a standard production guitar - an American Original Strat is around £1,500, Vintera Strat £800.

The JVM is Marshall's flagship amp, the masterbuilts are Fender's flagship guitars. I guess you could compare MG to Squier, Origin to Mexican, or whatever but the JVM is the best thing that they can do right here and now, the apex of their development so far. They move forward when they can and offer something newer and better (although admittedly not for the last decade). Unfortunately at their apex Fender has nothing really new to offer. Their 'apex' is the masterbuilt strats (and teles). Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore strats, but they are extremely simple bits of kit. I am not against them - I used to own a masterbuilt 54 50th anniversary strat which I got 2nd hand for about £1500 just after they came out. It just makes me chuckle that people are willing to pay 8k plus for a couple of bits of wood. But that probably says something about me!

bananaman

And a JVM is not that complex, circuit board derived 1950’s technology - it’s not an iPhone.

It's most definitely not just 1950s tech, unless they had Midi, ICs and so on back then. A strat most definitely is tech that was already old in the 50s.

crunchman

Having built a guitar, there is more labour in a guitar than in an amp.

Even if an amp nominally has more parts, it's a lot easier to put together.  You could probably put all the components on a circuit board and solder them in a couple of hours.

That's not a justification for ridiculous Fender Custom Shop prices, but building a guitar is definitely a lot more labour intensive.

chrisj1602

A Strat is undeniably 50s tech, but when you consider the finishing process as well as the assembly, it will still be more labour intensive than putting a production line amp together.

I’m not justifying the price of a Masterbuilt by the way, I personally wouldn’t pay that for a new guitar (unless I win Euromillions later, then I’ll buy one for my 8 year old son to learn on).

Tall_martin

There is also the flagship angle.

but honey, it’s only £2k they go all the way up to £8k. I’m saving so much money...

like a range topping car, they are there to make the normal version look more attainable

there is also the Veblen goods angle. Goods that are desirable because they are expensive.

£8k it must be amazing!

thegummy

Maybe amp modeling units and software has reduced the demand for amps whereas every player still buys the actual guitars?

Moleman

It seems to me that electric guitarists always fetishise the instrument whilst overlooking the fact that the amplifier is at least as important a component to achieving the overall sound. An example would be a ‘59 Sunburst LP whilst the equally important, Marshall ‘Bluesbreaker’ combo lies in comparative obscurity. I’d far sooner pay boutique amp money for a Carr, Swart or similar than Fender/Gibson CS money. It seems that the big ‘F’ and big ‘G’ have long since morphed into lifestyle type brands that are adept at charging what the market will bear. The thing is, with a probable deep and nasty global recession just around the corner, how many folk will be in the market for luxury purchases like these?

Funkfingers

bananaman said:

There must be hundreds (thousands?) of them that are pretty much exactly the same.

There are. Most of them are mediocre. 

Just occasionally, we come across an electric guitar or bass that is outstanding - even compared to other supposedly identical examples of the exact same model.

Voxman

Value is perception. And clearly there's a market for those that perceive £8,000 for a master-built Fender as representing good value. 

But I'm not one of them!!

simonhpieman

All I can say is a decent amp (in this case an early 90s Blues DeVille) made my £80 Epiphone sound better than the solid state Marshall practice amp that preceded it. TONS better.

A good amp can make any guitar sound great.

But amps don't look cool like guitars do 

bananaman

crunchman said:

Having built a guitar, there is more labour in a guitar than in an amp.

Even if an amp nominally has more parts, it's a lot easier to put together.  You could probably put all the components on a circuit board and solder them in a couple of hours.

That's not a justification for ridiculous Fender Custom Shop prices, but building a guitar is definitely a lot more labour intensive.

If you think about it there's no way this can be true. If you're just assembling a strat, or assembling a simple amp (say a Fender champ) from parts nether will take very long. If you're actually making a guitar (actually carving the body and neck etc) you'd have to make an equivalent amount of the amp for it to be fair, which would take much longer and require much more capital investment.

bananaman

Funkfingers said:

bananaman said:

There must be hundreds (thousands?) of them that are pretty much exactly the same.

There are. Most of them are mediocre. 

Just occasionally, we come across an electric guitar or bass that is outstanding - even compared to other supposedly identical examples of the exact same model.

Yeah, they are called Suhrs

bananaman

Moleman said:

It seems to me that electric guitarists always fetishise the instrument whilst overlooking the fact that the amplifier is at least as important a component to achieving the overall sound. An example would be a ‘59 Sunburst LP whilst the equally important, Marshall ‘Bluesbreaker’ combo lies in comparative obscurity. I’d far sooner pay boutique amp money for a Carr, Swart or similar than Fender/Gibson CS money. It seems that the big ‘F’ and big ‘G’ have long since morphed into lifestyle type brands that are adept at charging what the market will bear. The thing is, with a probable deep and nasty global recession just around the corner, how many folk will be in the market for luxury purchases like these?

Wise words indeed!

thegummy

Voxman said:

Value is perception. And clearly there's a market for those that perceive £8,000 for a master-built Fender as representing good value. 

But I'm not one of them!!

Do they really see it as good value or do they just want one and can afford one so buy one?

IsambardKentucky

Or... there are some professional musicians out there earning really big bucks. Vintage instruments are in an entirely different price bracket - making a master built Fender a pretty good option for some touring musicians who want to leave their vintage equipment in the studio and take a clone out on the road.

soma1975

There's enough guitars in the world now considering the current popularity. Guitar manufacturers know that but still need to turn a dollar. 

Therefore limited, special and custom shop high ticket price low yield objects are the only real way forward. 

bananaman

soma1975 said:

There's enough guitars in the world now considering the current popularity. Guitar manufacturers know that but still need to turn a dollar. 

Therefore limited, special and custom shop high ticket price low yield objects are the only real way forward. 

You know what, that's a really good point. After all unlike, say, cars which become unviable with extended use, guitars go on and on and on. Not many can go out of circulation, so the number just keeps increasing. I wonder where they all are lol. And I wonder how many guitars are sold today as opposed to during the peak years of guitar music (60s, 70s and 80s)?

crunchman

bananaman said:

crunchman said:

Having built a guitar, there is more labour in a guitar than in an amp.

Even if an amp nominally has more parts, it's a lot easier to put together.  You could probably put all the components on a circuit board and solder them in a couple of hours.

That's not a justification for ridiculous Fender Custom Shop prices, but building a guitar is definitely a lot more labour intensive.

If you think about it there's no way this can be true. If you're just assembling a strat, or assembling a simple amp (say a Fender champ) from parts nether will take very long. If you're actually making a guitar (actually carving the body and neck etc) you'd have to make an equivalent amount of the amp for it to be fair, which would take much longer and require much more capital investment.

Not true.

The finishing on a guitar is a lot of work with all the sanding and buffing etc.

Fretwork is also a very labour intensive job.  Installing frets, levelling them, crowning them, and polishing them will take hours to do it well.

Then you have to cut the nut, and set the guitar up, set the intonation etc.

An amp doesn't have any of those labour intensive processes.

springhead

^^ Agreed.  That Marshall may have lots of clever stuff, MIDI and what not but that costs pennies compared to the transformers and valves.  And the clever stuff will be plonked on the  PCB by a pick and place machine and flow soldered.  So there's little additional component cost in a clever amp vs a normal master volume Marshall.  Surface mount machinery costs but then so do the CNC routers and what not that Fender are using to build their bodies and necks.

bananaman

crunchman said:

bananaman said:

crunchman said:

Having built a guitar, there is more labour in a guitar than in an amp.

Even if an amp nominally has more parts, it's a lot easier to put together.  You could probably put all the components on a circuit board and solder them in a couple of hours.

That's not a justification for ridiculous Fender Custom Shop prices, but building a guitar is definitely a lot more labour intensive.

If you think about it there's no way this can be true. If you're just assembling a strat, or assembling a simple amp (say a Fender champ) from parts nether will take very long. If you're actually making a guitar (actually carving the body and neck etc) you'd have to make an equivalent amount of the amp for it to be fair, which would take much longer and require much more capital investment.

Not true.

The finishing on a guitar is a lot of work with all the sanding and buffing etc.

Fretwork is also a very labour intensive job.  Installing frets, levelling them, crowning them, and polishing them will take hours to do it well.

Then you have to cut the nut, and set the guitar up, set the intonation etc.

An amp doesn't have any of those labour intensive processes.

That's the difference between making and assembling. If you're truly making (rather than merely assembling) an amp, it's going to be way more work. I guess it's where you draw the line. Try creating your own PCB for example. It's perfectly possible, but to create even one of the PCBs inside a JVM would be very time consuming and take a lot more skill than finishing a guitar.