Grooveboxes

UnclePsychosis

Hey guys

Quite fancy a little groovebox, know there's a few fans here. 

In the past I've owned a Volca:Samples but it didn't do it for me. Now I've got a Novation Circuit but for some reason I've never bonded with it - i think the drum tracks never really worked for me and the synth engine always seems too random, I can never work out how to get the sounds I want. 

A few new releases have caught my eye - Roland MC 101 looks pretty good but the workflow seems pretty painful. I quite like the look of the Model:Cycles though...

Obviously someone will say Digitakt but I don't think I want to spend that money.

Thoughts? 

UnclePsychosis

Paging @jackio for his Cycles experience... :-)

WiresDreamDisasters

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Strangefan

I had a models cycles, I sold it on within a month. I didn't enjoy it at all, lots of secondary button presses, and menus, I had a mpc live for 2 years truly brillaint but again a learning curve, but very musical.

I also had a teenage engineering op 1 and an opz the op1 truly brillaint work Flow when you get your head around but, but soooo brash and harsh sounding, it was very hard to get anything warm out of it.

The opz honestly brillaint, lovely sounds, and great work flow, I definately regret selling that one! 

UnclePsychosis

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye? 

WiresDreamDisasters

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye? 

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

danishbacon

Having owned Maschine MK1,2&3 as well as Push 2, I think Maschine MK3 is an excellent tool, comes packed with useful stuff out of the box, very nice to sample with and has a nice (to me) workflow. 

chotu495

Digitakt. 

I have a volka drum too, and it makes the digitakt look like good value.

Yes, it was a bit daunting to take the plunge, but it is just ace. Never regretted it, and never selling.

goldtop

How deep do you want it to be? MPC Live/One are a lot of fun and easy once you "get it". Do you want to sample and chop? That's the biggest decision to make.

If not, the left-field and affordable choice would be a used Roland JD-Xi. It's an analogue+digital synth with a groovebox built-in, and the X0X drum and key-based programming is so easy. It looks toy-like, but with there's a lot in there (see the JD-Xi Manager app to see).

Fuengi

I use the Volca Sample on live mode and record straight into a looper without the sequencer which is limited. I use an A/B switch permanently on my board to make this easy to add guitar or drum / sample parts. Sometimes I just use my stomp box.  

For me it's less about what I use than how I use it. 

octatonic

UnclePsychosis said:

Hey guys

Quite fancy a little groovebox, know there's a few fans here. 

In the past I've owned a Volca:Samples but it didn't do it for me. Now I've got a Novation Circuit but for some reason I've never bonded with it - i think the drum tracks never really worked for me and the synth engine always seems too random, I can never work out how to get the sounds I want. 

A few new releases have caught my eye - Roland MC 101 looks pretty good but the workflow seems pretty painful. I quite like the look of the Model:Cycles though...

Obviously someone will say Digitakt but I don't think I want to spend that money.

Thoughts? 

I wasn't sure I was going to write a reply to this because I didn't want to sound like an asshole so take anything I've got to say here with a grain of salt but this is, in my opinion, what is going on.

I see this a lot and I see people trying to buy/trade their way out of it and it never really works, because the problem isn't what the technology can or cannot do but rather how you interface with it and the choices you make.
I don't mean 'you' and in you, I mean you as in 'one'.

Creating loops and grooves with step sequencers is inherently limiting.
It is supposed to be because a completely open sequencer, like you get in a DAW, means any options are available to you and sometimes people get paralysed with options.

If you want more options to be able to get specifically what you want then use a DAW.
If you want something limited to 8/16/32/64 steps when use some for of step sequencers but they will pretty much all work the same way, except for Elektron, which has the additional flexibility of parameter locking and conditional trigs, which allows you to break out of some of the limitations of step sequencer workflow.

I will once again post this- which is the best advice for anyone working with technology to achieve something musical.



Watch it- it is absolutely worth it.

Applying what is in that video to a hardware workflow- you need to get out of your own way and really into the device, "bend it to your will".
You will eventually hit the limitations of the device, you are supposed to, otherwise you are better off using a DAW.

I'm sorry but I don't accept 'I didn't bond with it' as a valid reason for anything.
This might sound harsh- I don't mean it to be- but I've also been there, blaming the gear when the truth is it comes down to 'me' and the choices I make with it.

Selling a piece of gear because you can't make it do what you want it to means you jump to a new piece of gear and you reset the clock, learn the rudiments of a new piece of tech without ever really refining your workflow enough for your use of it to express your musical ideas, you get frustrated again and the same thing happens.

Sit down with the devices you have or the device you buy next and promise yourself that you won't bail on the device until you're happy with what you're able to create with it.

I'm not putting myself out here as the "God of all knowledge" when it comes to synths and drum machines, but I have had some of the same issues when it comes to making the tech do that you want. It is a very common problem and the coping mechanisms people have to make themselves feel better about not achieving their goals (buy/sell/buy/sell) doesn't help resolve the central issues, which are 'how good are my ideas and how do I realise them?'.

Here is something I made, mostly with step sequencers and synths:



There is a lot of Access Virus in there, and some Moog, but a lot of it is just cut up samples thrown into various step sequencers and eventually thrown together in a DAW in a collage-like methodology.
If you have any specific questions about how I made it then just ask.

UnclePsychosis

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye? 

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

That does look cool. 

It did make me wonder if I'd just be better off investing the time in learning Ableton Live properly instead. I don't really need the portability or performance features of MPC...

UnclePsychosis

Thanks for the advice @octatonic ;

I think you're right that gear isn't really the answer. Fairly sure that I should spend more time with Ableton Live (I've got whatever the cheapy cutdown version is called).

Fairly sure I'm going to sell the Circuit, if I'm not using it is just taking up space. 

Strangefan

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does. 
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc, 
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s  or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them 

Fretwired

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye? 

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

The NI Maschine range could be worth checking out - I have one - dead easy to use and feature packed. You can create and arrange a whole track on one.

The Maschine Micro is only £199 ... all the units work with NI Komplete. Some good deals on at the moment.

Deals: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/specials/summer-of-sound-2020/hardware-offers/#c943601

octatonic

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does. 
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc, 
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s  or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them 

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

UnclePsychosis

The Maschine Mikro plus a DAW looks like it would be perfect to be honest - I think it's the right mix of hardware for triggering things and computer for the details and sequencing. Thanks @Fretwired ;

Digitakt looks great but its just a bit much to spend right now.

WiresDreamDisasters

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

UnclePsychosis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Anything MPC-ish out there that might take your fancy?

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Never really fancied an MPC but will check them out. Any in particular catch your eye? 

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-one

Might be over budget tbh, but looks amazing!

That does look cool. 

It did make me wonder if I'd just be better off investing the time in learning Ableton Live properly instead. I don't really need the portability or performance features of MPC...

Ah okay, so you've got Live? Then maybe you'd wanna look at getting a Push2 instead then? Gives you tons of hands on flexibility, and you can treat it as a basic sequencer if you want, or you can go hogwild recording in automation envelopes and different scenes and what not.

I think Jim is right though - you do need to spend time with this stuff and really commit to learning it through and through. I had a Digitakt btw and it isn't what I would call "intuitive".

Strangefan

octatonic said:

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does. 
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc, 
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s  or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them 

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

Yup I see what your saying, but money for toys to beable to buy buy buy isn't so free flowing for most, so for a lot Inc me it's one item in one item out,, 

octatonic

Strangefan said:

octatonic said:

Strangefan said:

@octatonic I def see what you're saying how'ver the mpc live is a portable DAW with that flexibility in a portable system,, the op1 has approx 4 different sequencers but has a very specific sound which will certainly not be for everyone,

Its very true (for all instruments) that the idea is the fundamental foundation and if that's crap no tech will help how'ver, you have to find what works for you and until you try a few grooveboxes you wont know what does. 
The MPC live worked for me because it was a daw in a box, and I enjoyed going from Cubase to mpc, 
However for quickly laying down a few beats you can't beat something more basic like a tr8s  or groove box but for serious song recording they are pretty limited other than a sketchbook, however for when inspiration strikes, you csnt beat them 

I'm definitely up for experimenting with different boxes- but the buy/sell/buy/sell fandango doesn't get most people very far. It all depends why someone is changing a piece of gear out- is it because you can't make it do what you want, or because it cannot do what you want.

So, yeah find the thing that allows you to express your ideas and this might require a bit of experimentation but if a person finds themselves spending more time on the minutiae then that is a symptom of what can be called 'majoring in minor things'.

Anyhoo- I would suggest the Digitakt as an option, although the OP has said it is out of budget. Perhaps buy used.
It doesn't have a song mode but if you are happy to track it into a DAW and arrange songs that way then it will be a great option.

Yup I see what your saying, but money for toys to beable to buy buy buy isn't so free flowing for most, so for a lot Inc me it's one item in one item out,, 

Sure, I'm not saying that (buy buy buy) is the way to do it either though- you end up with a load of stuff that is basically furniture.
Some of these devices are so deep that you can spend years learning their full capabilities.

One or two pieces of gear + a DAW (for pencil, eraser, scissors, as per the Ill gates vid) is all you really need.
Learn them, master them, make stuff with them and stay focussed on the big picture, which is finishing music.

WiresDreamDisasters

That's a great video Jim, 13minutes into it and already got ideas for changing my workflow. Thanks for posting.