How do you learn your Modal scale?

Axe_meister

Do you learn the 5 Major scale shapes (CAGED), and think, Which scale degree is the Mode built off, say E Mixolydian is the 5th of A Major and hit the A Major scale, or do you think intervals and use the Major scale as a skeleton. I.e. Play the E major scale and flatten the 7th?

sev112

and play the major scale pattern starting from whichever note you wish

Roland

Axe_meister said:

... Play the E major scale and flatten the 7th?

This. I don’t practice running up and down scales because it encourages mechanical playing, but I do play scale fragments. I’m much more interested in melody and harmony, and use the modal notes add colour to the basic scale.

viz

Axe_meister said:

Do you learn the 5 Major scale shapes (CAGED), and think, Which scale degree is the Mode built off, say E Mixolydian is the 5th of A Major and hit the A Major scale, or do you think intervals and use the Major scale as a skeleton. I.e. Play the E major scale and flatten the 7th?

The latter! Except I start with major or minor, then alter for lydian or mixolydian, and for dorian or phrygian if we’re in minor. 

I NEVER think of minor as being major with a flat 3, 6 and 7. I just think of minor as being its own thing. 

Danny1969

I do the same as Viz, it makes the most sense to me. I never think of the guitar or fretboard, I visualise the intervals. So Dorian is a minor scale with a sharp 6 

octatonic

I think in intervals, not shapes.

Keefy

Each mode has its own characteristic sound. Rick Beato has some good stuff on this, e.g:

DrJazzTap

I did a few guitar vids in lockdown and asked friends if they wanted to know any guitar stuff, a few asked about modes. I sighed and tried to record a brief video...didn't really happen!

@Roland hit the nail on the head for me, I found if I just blasted through a major scale starting on different degrees it didnt really sound any different. it's easy to default to muscle memory But If i accented the section of the mode which sounds unique (really hit that sharpened fourth in a major for a lydian for example) with a backing track then it's easier to hear a difference.

Ultimately for me, I need to deep dive this stuff. I'm not a massive Mixolydian or locrian user (is anyone?) I tend to be quite meat and potatoes. With a lydian i think of 80s widdlers (flying in a blue dream) and phyrgian i think of 90s metallica.

Axe_meister

The reason I ask, I was playing over a Mixolydian chord sequence and very quickly found I was targeting standard Major intervals (3rds/5ths) of the underlying chord rather than adding flavours of the underlying mode, so I might as well just play arpeggios. 

viz

DrJazzTap said:

I did a few guitar vids in lockdown and asked friends if they wanted to know any guitar stuff, a few asked about modes. I sighed and tried to record a brief video...didn't really happen!

@Roland hit the nail on the head for me, I found if I just blasted through a major scale starting on different degrees it didnt really sound any different. it's easy to default to muscle memory But If i accented the section of the mode which sounds unique (really hit that sharpened fourth in a major for a lydian for example) with a backing track then it's easier to hear a difference.

Ultimately for me, I need to deep dive this stuff. I'm not a massive Mixolydian or locrian user (is anyone?) I tend to be quite meat and potatoes. With a lydian i think of 80s widdlers (flying in a blue dream) and phyrgian i think of 90s metallica.

If you’re a meat and potatoes man playing rock, chances are you’re playing mixolydian a lot of the time, no?

Roland

I’d say that 45% of what I play is mixolydian, 50% is split between the minors, and 5% is everything else. However I never think of it as scales. It’s “these are the notes in the chord which anchor the phrase, and these are the interesting notes that add colour around that”.

GuyBoden

Play each 7 note mode starting on the root note C.

C Ionian

C Lydian

C Mixolydian

C Aeolian

C Dorian

C Phrygian

C Locrian

Play each mode until you can hear each one distinctly. Hearing and recognising them takes more time and more effort than just playing them IMHO.

Danny1969

Although it's important to know modes and how to inject their flavour into your solo's it's still always more important to think about the notes in the underlying chord you're playing over. So If I'm happily solo'ing in Am and there's am Emaj chord in the sequence I'll play a G# maj 7 rather than a G as I know G# being the maj 3rd of Emaj makes that a much more interesting and melodic note to use than sticking purely to Am 

What I need to work out is what ties everything in, I feel there's something I'm missing still at the moment 

sev112

So everyone’s’ replies is about how you play the modes as opposed to the question of how you learn them

I learned them just by playing a major scale and starting on The next note, and rembering the mnemonic I Don’t Particulalry Like Modes A Lot - can’t remember where I got that from, probably here.

but I Play them by knowing (presumabky from a lot of repetition over time) what the individual altered intervals are , and they are only 3rd , 6th and 7th.   I always know where my 3rd is, where my 4th and 5th are, and flat 7th because they are where my fingers fall from my index finger (admittedly top 3 strings are slightly different because of the B string not being a 4th above G)

Roland

I learned them by knowing where they were (in the spaces between major and minor scale notes), learning what they sounded like as I encountered chords which used them, and reinforcing this knowledge as I encountered songs or musical styles which used them. 

viz

And the 2nd, 4th and 5th!

DrJazzTap

viz said:

DrJazzTap said:

I did a few guitar vids in lockdown and asked friends if they wanted to know any guitar stuff, a few asked about modes. I sighed and tried to record a brief video...didn't really happen!

@Roland hit the nail on the head for me, I found if I just blasted through a major scale starting on different degrees it didnt really sound any different. it's easy to default to muscle memory But If i accented the section of the mode which sounds unique (really hit that sharpened fourth in a major for a lydian for example) with a backing track then it's easier to hear a difference.

Ultimately for me, I need to deep dive this stuff. I'm not a massive Mixolydian or locrian user (is anyone?) I tend to be quite meat and potatoes. With a lydian i think of 80s widdlers (flying in a blue dream) and phyrgian i think of 90s metallica.

If you’re a meat and potatoes man playing rock, chances are you’re playing mixolydian a lot of the time, no?

Aeolian mate 

Roland

Here’s a simple example of using different notes without going through modal scales. Nothing complicated:

https://youtu.be/LXb240caUyw

GuyBoden

I've got to admit I learned modal concepts from a course based on "Modal Jazz Composition and Harmony by Ron Miller". I found that Modal Jazz isn't the same as Modal Rock/Pop.

Here's the list of notes that distinguish a mode's character from highest to lowest, according to the Modal Jazz course. Example, the 6th note of the Dorian mode/scale is the note that distinguishes the mode most.

See below:

Axe_meister

DrJazzTap said:

viz said:

DrJazzTap said:

I did a few guitar vids in lockdown and asked friends if they wanted to know any guitar stuff, a few asked about modes. I sighed and tried to record a brief video...didn't really happen!

@Roland hit the nail on the head for me, I found if I just blasted through a major scale starting on different degrees it didnt really sound any different. it's easy to default to muscle memory But If i accented the section of the mode which sounds unique (really hit that sharpened fourth in a major for a lydian for example) with a backing track then it's easier to hear a difference.

Ultimately for me, I need to deep dive this stuff. I'm not a massive Mixolydian or locrian user (is anyone?) I tend to be quite meat and potatoes. With a lydian i think of 80s widdlers (flying in a blue dream) and phyrgian i think of 90s metallica.

If you’re a meat and potatoes man playing rock, chances are you’re playing mixolydian a lot of the time, no?

Aeolian mate 

Plus B2 and b5

Cranky

CAGED only factors for me when I'm focusing on triads and arpeggios or when I'm focusing on a voice leading scheme.  Scale degrees and modes are how I work out the chord progression and the "tonal center", and the tonal center is what drives the aforementioned triads/arpeggios/voice leading.  

If I'm playing C Myxolidian, I just tell myself to play the chords and scale of F major but then find some way to emphasize the Bb-C so that the F itself doesn't dominate.  So like, C Mixolydian is just a decentered F major, and C Lydian is just a decentered G major, etc etc.

I'm probably oversimplifying things for the sake of my own mental clarity, and I'm only just beginning the process of self-consciously noodling with these things in mind in order to capture an intentional mood and feeling.  But so far I think that my "decentered" theme has helped me distill the patterns from what looks like fretboard chaos at first glance.