What to do with WEM Sapphire?

rico

I picked up this 1960's WEM Sapphire this weekend, my dad has had it since he was young but the neck was toast and I (maybe naively) replaced it with a Mighty Mite strat neck about 15 years ago. 

From my limited research, the Sapphire should have a 24-3/8ths scale length, rather than the 25.5" it now has with the strat neck so the first question is do I try and source a shorter scale neck? It's quite a bright guitar so i'm thinking a rosewood board would help tame that.

Next, the electronics. The pickups are very very basic and are low output and at some stage the toggle switch has been disconnected and the four-way selector is the only way of varying the tone. My thoughts would be to completely replace all the electronics and pickups. The current pickups measure about 30x72mm so i'm hoping mini-humbuckers are an equivalent size. 
Three-way toggle switch and master volume and tone. Sound about right?

The bridge has been replaced by a tun-o-matic type but the tailpiece is still the original floating type and is a right pain to restring. Perhaps a change to an intonatable wraparound?

Couple of pics below, comments and suggestions welcomed!

ICBM

The first and most important question is - is the intonation even close to correct now? I see you've got the bridge saddles as far back as possible...

What type of replacement neck you need depends on the distance from the neck pocket to the bridge, with the saddles in a more normal position.

rico

ICBM said:

The first and most important question is - is the intonation even close to correct now? I see you've got the bridge saddles as far back as possible...

What type of replacement neck you need depends on the distance from the neck pocket to the bridge, with the saddles in a more normal position.

It is intonated correctly, just. 

Distance from the neck pocket to middle of the bridge is 176mm

ICBM

rico said:

It is intonated correctly, just.

OK... next question .

Is that a 22-fret 'overhang' neck, or a full-length 22-fret neck?

If it's an overhang neck, you might actually be best looking for a full 22-fret 25.5"-scale one - these do exist, some Chinese Strat-types have them - because that will move the whole neck about 1/4" further out of the body.

A 'conversion' neck - intended to make a Fender into a 24-3/4" Gibson scale - is also a possibility but might need the end of the neck padding with a piece of wood to get it to the right position.

If it's already a full 22-fret neck things get more tricky, since they're not standard dimensions and you'll need to either do some complex calculations or find a substitute neck and see if it fits.

rico

@ICBM thank you for the swift reply!

It is a 22-fret 'overhang' replacement neck. The original neck was a 21-fret 'full' neck.

Would I be correct in assuming that if find a Jaguar neck that would be almost perfect?

ICBM

rico said:

Would I be correct in assuming that if find a Jaguar neck that would be almost perfect?

No, I don't think so - wrong scale length and needs a shorter distance from the neck pocket to the bridge, probably too short even for this. Although you could get someone who has one to measure it...

PhilKing

What is the actual scale length now?  That might help with what would work.

rico

PhilKing said:

What is the actual scale length now?  That might help with what would work.

The scale length now is 646mm

rico

ICBM said:

rico said:

Would I be correct in assuming that if find a Jaguar neck that would be almost perfect?

No, I don't think so - wrong scale length and needs a shorter distance from the neck pocket to the bridge, probably too short even for this. Although you could get someone who has one to measure it...

Hmm, interesting. I’ve messaged a few sellers on eBay asking what their scale length is. 

mikem8634

Suggestion here of a 24.5 inch scale length. No idea how reliable that may be.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wilson-wem-sapphire-ii-left-hand-284622416

rico

mikem8634 said:

Suggestion here of a 24.5 inch scale length. No idea how reliable that may be.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wilson-wem-sapphire-ii-left-hand-284622416

Yeah I saw that one. Another seller on ebay reckons the scale length on his is 63cm.

Edit: themusiclocker on ebay reckons his is 24"...

PhilKing

rico said:

PhilKing said:

What is the actual scale length now?  That might help with what would work.

The scale length now is 646mm

And is the 12th fret at 323mm?  That might suggest the bridge has been moved.

mikem8634

rico said:

mikem8634 said:

Suggestion here of a 24.5 inch scale length. No idea how reliable that may be.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wilson-wem-sapphire-ii-left-hand-284622416

Yeah I saw that one. Another seller on ebay reckons the scale length on his is 63cm.

Edit: themusiclocker on ebay reckons his is 24"...

Wow, it's proving quite the minefield for you. Good luck.

rico

PhilKing said:

rico said:

PhilKing said:

What is the actual scale length now?  That might help with what would work.

The scale length now is 646mm

And is the 12th fret at 323mm?  That might suggest the bridge has been moved.

The bridge position hasn't changed. I do note that the neck is a few mm shy of the end of the neck pocket. 

I can't work out how if the original scale length is approx 24", a replacement strat neck gives an effective scale length of 25-3/8" without loads of intonation issues

rico

Ok next up on the list of considerations - the string positioning/alignment...here is what it currently looks
like:

It’s got a tunomatic bridge so the intrinsic spacing won’t match that of the strat neck. 

New saddles and cut notches according to f-spacing?

ICBM

That's an alignment problem not spacing. You should be able to fix it by moving the headstock towards the bass side slightly if there's any free play, or by slightly shaving the side of the pocket towards the outer end if there isn't. (ie the neck needs to rotate slightly, not move sideways.)

rico

I had the neck off to take some measurements and manages to reseat it, it’s a little better:

The reason I had the neck off was to take the following measurement - the dimension from the neck pocket to the centre line of the bridge (measured starting at 100mm on tape). It’s 178mm. 

Does this help with determining what the original scale length should have been? 

ICBM

rico said:

I had the neck off to take some measurements and manages to reseat it, it’s a little better:

Better, but still not quite right. I wouldn't try to fix it until you've got the right neck though, if it means taking material off the pocket.

rico said:

Does this help with determining what the original scale length should have been? 

That looks more like 172mm to me... Or probably 173 allowing for slight photo parallax.

The top E saddle position will be a couple of mm forward of the centre of the bridge, so I would say 171mm is the measurement you need.

From photos online the original neck had 21 frets, so the end of the pocket would be almost exactly at the 22nd fret position, which is 0.281 of the scale length - so that makes the scale 609mm or 24".

That means that a Jaguar neck will definitely *not* fit without modification since they have 22 frets, so you'd need to cut an overhang into it so the 22nd fret was over the end of the pocket.

rico

Here is a better photo:

 

But yes I understand what you are saying. Here are the current saddle positions. It’s intonated pretty perfectly, maybe one or two cents out. 

rico

ICBM said:

From photos online the original neck had 21 frets, so the end of the pocket would be almost exactly at the 22nd fret position, which is 0.281 of the scale length - so that makes the scale 609mm or 24".

That means that a Jaguar neck will definitely *not* fit without modification since they have 22 frets, so you'd need to cut an overhang into it so the 22nd fret was over the end of the pocket.

So does that mean if I can find/commission a Jag (or other 24" scale) neck with 21 frets, that will be OK? 

ICBM

No - if the measurement is 178mm (that's a remarkable amount of parallax!) then the figure you need for the top E saddle position is about 176mm from the neck pocket, so then the calculation becomes:

12th root of 0.5 (the calculation for each fret position) to the 22nd power = 0.281

176/0.281 = 627mm or 24.7".

So whoever suggested 24.5" was close. It might be a Gibson scale - 24-5/8" or 24-3/4", depending on how you define that.