The recent violence on Capitol Hill

chotu495

Facebook and Instagram are blocking Trump indefinately, and at least until the end of his term as President. (Via aljazeera and Washington Post)

I wonder if Twitter will follow suit?

chotu495

Republican Adam Kinzinger the first i’ve seen to call for 25th amendment to be invoked.

axisus

Legionreturns

axisus said:

Nope...they smashed through the windows! 

ThePrettyDamned

On a serious note, there are so many people who support this - these are disenfranchised, but probably good-at-heart humans who are being... Manipulated? Into being something else.

I sincerely hope the new government is able to make these people feel like a real part of the system. I wonder how it feels to live in America, be told since you're a child it's the greatest country in the world and that, if you work hard enough, you can have anything... But be unhappy, with few opportunities and support systems and work your arse off but only just make ends meet. 

Heartfeltdawn

ThePrettyDamned said:

On a serious note, there are so many people who support this - these are disenfranchised, but probably good-at-heart humans who are being... Manipulated? Into being something else.

I sincerely hope the new government is able to make these people feel like a real part of the system. I wonder how it feels to live in America, be told since you're a child it's the greatest country in the world and that, if you work hard enough, you can have anything... But be unhappy, with few opportunities and support systems and work your arse off but only just make ends meet. 

What if large numbers of them aren't disenfranchised?

We're seeing so much from the bullshit world: Covid denialism, Deep State believers, QAnon. The power these have over other conspiracy theories is massive because it's moved from the fringes into the mainstream. As a consequence, it's grabbed people who aren't disenfranchised, people who earn decent money, people who aren't on the breadline. Think of some of those images of people outside of federal buildings with guns and pickups. Because of the spread of modern media, these theories go mainstream. 

Don't get me wrong, there are believers out there who feel society has fucked them over for the reasons you mention. But there's a number out there of people who seem utterly normal. Take someone like Derrick Evans for instance. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/06/954227854/video-shows-newly-elected-w-va-lawmaker-among-mob-that-stormed-the-u-s-capitol?t=1610048072303

The same is true of BLM and something closer to home like the student demonstrations that trashed CCHQ a few years back. 

Rich210

I think the pretty damned meant that disenfranchisement would be something in the background for many. And I agree with you that the power of influence and a constant stream of self affirming information which is deeply troubling and shared socially by associates they trust is a recipe for disaster. Once the paranoid state is entrenched its a free for all for powerful others to advantage of.  

Disenfranchisement goes hand in hand with a lack of general support both nearby and further away. Once people are left with relationships which are unsupportive and can't explain the world appropriately you're left with paranoid people without love.

Trump replaces this love, the community that recycles hate provides an outlet for anxiety. 

VimFuego

I guess, for them, what's important is to believe they are part of an oppressed minority. They are told, and they believe that they are under attack, their values are under attack. That's enough for them to feel disenfranchised, even if they are in fact, the most privileged group the world has ever known.  

Rich210

VimFuego said:

I guess, for them, what's important is to believe they are part of an oppressed minority. They are told, and they believe that they are under attack, their values are under attack. That's enough for them to feel disenfranchised, even if they are in fact, the most privileged group the world has ever known.  

I like your perspective on this. For me it's all about how they perceive the world and how their representations of typically safeguarding relationships like government, teachers and parents are inherently lacking trust. This is the fire which trump throws petrol on so to speak. 

Heartfeltdawn

If we go with the definition of disenfranchisement, where one is deprived of a right or privilege, then I would stand by many of them having not being truly disenfranchised by, say, the state or federal government. That's something very different to my mind to feeling disenfranchised. I'd go back to Elliot Rodger's murder spree as an example of someone who wasn't recognisably disenfranchised but felt it anyhow. 

And that's pretty much along the lines of what I was saying above. This shit in the US has gained power not because more people are disenfranchised per se but because more people feel it ie it's down to individual perception rather than actual situational or historical reality. There's enough self-delusion out there to fuel a rise in people who feel disenfranchised and enough self-delusion to believe conspiracy theories and all the rest. 

NickBrown

Grumpyrocker said:

chotu495 said:

I expect Hugo Boss are rubbing their hands together in anticipation of a spike in orders.

They did not design nazi uniforms. But the internet myth persists.

Really? Maybe they just made them

VimFuego

Rich210 said:

VimFuego said:

I guess, for them, what's important is to believe they are part of an oppressed minority. They are told, and they believe that they are under attack, their values are under attack. That's enough for them to feel disenfranchised, even if they are in fact, the most privileged group the world has ever known.  

I like your perspective on this. For me it's all about how they perceive the world and how their representations of typically safeguarding relationships like government, teachers and parents are inherently lacking trust. This is the fire which trump throws petrol on so to speak. 

yup, and this is something I have said about him in the past, he didn't invent this, but his expertise has always been in gaming the system, in loopholing (which is different from cornholin', as the judge was very quick to point out), in exploiting a situation to his advantage. And this is why, although I celebrate his defeat, this is a long way from over, he will be replaced. We need to find ways to bring the "disenfranchised" back into the mainstream. We need to get rid of this fear and resentment of intellectualism which leads to conspiracy theories. We need to find a way to elect trustworthy leaders, and then start trusting them again (yeah, OK, I saw it that then, time to put the crack pipe down).

ThePrettyDamned

Heartfeltdawn said:

If we go with the definition of disenfranchisement, where one is deprived of a right or privilege, then I would stand by many of them having not being truly disenfranchised by, say, the state or federal government. That's something very different to my mind to feeling disenfranchised. I'd go back to Elliot Rodger's murder spree as an example of someone who wasn't recognisably disenfranchised but felt it anyhow. 

And that's pretty much along the lines of what I was saying above. This shit in the US has gained power not because more people are disenfranchised per se but because more people feel it ie it's down to individual perception rather than actual situational or historical reality. There's enough self-delusion out there to fuel a rise in people who feel disenfranchised and enough self-delusion to believe conspiracy theories and all the rest. 

That's a fair comment, and probably more accurate to my point - I'm not great at this. 

goldtop

If we're revisiting Trump's appeal, it's not just the so-called disenfranchised that are needed. He also needs the rich and those who do well out of the US system. This article is a great read:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/

Trump, Erdogan, Putin, etc. It's the same playbook: squeeze the middle-class progressive/centrists out of the political equation by playing to the two extremes. As long as the so-called deplorables see the minorities and libtards getting owned, they are happy(er), and as long as the wealthy get those tax breaks and handouts, they will go along for the ride.

VimFuego

/\ /\ and that's the thing that pisses me off most about the Trump apologists, he never intended to drain the swamp or MAGA, his goal was to make his rich mates richer. And I'm sure Biden's goal is to make his rich mates richer. The only real difference between either side is the flavour of lube they sell us before fisting us senseless. Which I guess makes our system still better than others, at least we get lube. In China, you get it dry.

TforTele

Perhaps looked at from an "evolutionary consciousness" point of view (though I'm no expert on it) these are people just about at orange level (heavy on the individualism and self-reliance) with large amounts of amber (ethno- and nation-centric, mythic) and red (ego-centric, war-like) remaining.  Meanwhile the world has been steadily moving to a more "world-centric" state with the gradual emergence over the last sixty years of "green level" thinking and politics.  They really cannot understand the world that is emerging so they are lashing out and trying to destroy the "elite" they see as steering in that direction.  They need someone to listen to them and understand them, and Trump seemed to do that.  What he had no interest in doing was reconciling them with this new world, and that job needs to be done.

Just a different perspective.

Brio

The same is true of BLM and something closer to home like the student demonstrations that trashed CCHQ a few years back. 

Are you really comparing BLM protests and the response they got to the shitstorm last night that showed how differently the American system treats black people?

You fucktard.

octatonic

My favourite so far:

Teetonetal

Brio said:

The same is true of BLM and something closer to home like the student demonstrations that trashed CCHQ a few years back. 

Are you really comparing BLM protests and the response they got to the shitstorm last night that showed how differently the American system treats black people?

You fucktard.

I think you massively missed the point.

Heartfeltdawn

Brio said:

The same is true of BLM and something closer to home like the student demonstrations that trashed CCHQ a few years back. 

Are you really comparing BLM protests and the response they got to the shitstorm last night that showed how differently the American system treats black people?

You fucktard.

@Brio ;;

Point so far missed, I'm in London and you're on Saturn, man. 

At stage did I actually discuss the treatment the assholes in the Capitol got compared to BLM so fuck knows where you've pulled that one from. 

The point I was making and you didn't get at all: not everyone on a protest march is a person hugely disenfranchised by society. Case in point: Charlie Gilmour a few years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jul/15/charlie-gilmour-jailed-david-son-pink-floyd ;

So feel free to return and either explain why I'm a fucktard or pull the title back