The TV Thread

fretmeister

Timcito said:

Ozzie744 said:

CavemanGrogg said:

Just finished watching Elementary, actually found it really enjoyable.  It's a Sherlock Holmes TV series, we actually liked it a lot more than the series Sherlock staring Benedict Cumberbatch, I actually think Lucy Liu makes a brilliant Dr Watson probably one of the best if not the best Dr Watson, and though I don't think that Jonny Lee Miller plays the best Sherlock Holmes - that would be Jeremy Brett, he is a far superior Holmes than Benedict Cumberbatch.  My only complaint, and to be honest it's more a me thing really, is the cinematography, as in you're rarely if ever shown the full scene to make deductions yourself, and Holmes solves all his cases by using clues that he seems to produce from nowhere, as they are never seen until Holmes produces them.

Elementary is definitely one of my all time favorite shows. I love the dynamic between Miller & Liu and the fact that it takes place in NY is a nice twist. I hadn't really what you pointed out about the cinematography, I will have to pay more attention and look for it when I watch. Good show / good acting / good stories.

This is may not going be a popular opinion, but I was put off by an Asian-American actress playing Dr. Watson. Also by the present=day setting. I'm all for inclusivity, but I prefer classic characters to remain reasonably true to their originals and within their original environment. I would similarly not welcome a black lesbian Captain Bligh, a male German bodybuilder as Miss Marple, or our favourite spy reimagined as 'Trans Bond.'

As I say, I'm all for equal representation, but I would prefer drama creators to invent a new character to accommodate all races, genders and orientations rather than force them into a classic role.

If everything had to stick with their original setting then at least 80% of science fiction and westerns would have to be deleted as they are all updates to Kurosawa films.

Even The Gunfight at the OK Corral and Star Wars would all have to go.

I am extremely picky about Holmes. I love the character. I have about 9 different versions of “Hound…” that I’ve collected and they all have their charms.

Elementary is one of the very best. The casting of Watson shouldn’t put anyone off, it was inspired! If anything it was far more respectful of the original than Peter Cushing / Andre Morell ever were. 

Not only that, but updates encourage new fans to delve into the rich world of Holmes.

Nothing was forced.It was superbly written and Lucy Lieu was exactly the right choice. 

sinbaadi

On the last series of The Man in the High Castle.

It definitely is more in the sci-fi realm than alternative history at this point.  The introduction of multiverse situations and this idea that a successful Nazi war campaign would have led to not just global domination but then also that "evil" spreading to other dimensions is a long way from the original sort of plot points of families being massacred and vengeful resistance fighters.

Still quite enjoying it, but it's starting to feel a bit like Timecop or something.

Brio

I loved (love?) Elementary.
Sherlock was too full of the writers going 'look how clever we are" although the Cumberbatch/Freeeman dynamic qworked well for me.

TimmyO

Jumping on this thread for the first time so sorry if this was already done:

Fucking 'Passenger' on ITV. What the actual fffffffff?

Anyone else watched it?

The WHOLE premise of these 'oooh what's really going on?' mystery dramas is that eventually they tell you - so that all the deliberately obscure and vague suggestions as to what might be going on get resolved and you stop being frustrated. But it just stops. I genuinely thought there was an episode or 2 missing from ITVX.

Googling suggests others thought the same. 

stufisher

Watched Coma on ITVX recently and it was actually much better then I'd expected it to be.

The story evolves gradually and pulls you along at the right pace, with suitable tension in some scenes, making it an easy watch. The characters themselves are a bit 'thin' perhaps but I did like their inter-relationships and the underlying plot twists.

My gripe is the ending ... I don't wanna spoil it for anyone but if you've watched it then you'll know.

Despite the 2-point deduction for the above it's still a 7.5/10

goldtop

Timcito said:

As I say, I'm all for equal representation, but ...

In a world where every artistic innovation from any minority is 'borrowed' and monetised by rich white guys, this is a weird take.

(Is it OK if I carry on playing the blues, or is that different?)

munckee

Snap said:

Married At First Sight Australia: fecking awesome TV

Just brilliant television, and I generally hate reality tv.  We watched MAFS UK but its not the same, the australians are brutally direct and honest.

Timcito

goldtop said:

Timcito said:

As I say, I'm all for equal representation, but ...

In a world where every artistic innovation from any minority is 'borrowed' and monetised by rich white guys, this is a weird take.

(Is it OK if I carry on playing the blues, or is that different?)

I realize you're making an attempt at sarcasm, but It really is different. Music is a much more abstract form of expression than a story, even more so a film, where we imagine an alternative reality bound by and infused with artistic design. Such stories mirror the real world to such an extent that we apply the 'suspension of disbelief': we imagine that the images and actions we see on the screen are actually happening 

When someone makes a story using famous characters, I think part of this suspension of disbelief involves an expectation that they will remain (relatively) true to the originals. If I enjoyed a Sherlock Holmes story in the past, part of that enjoyment will have been the way that characters and their environments were constructed. Play around with this and you risk allowing the pleasurable illusion we enjoyed in the first place to fall apart. 

Music has nothing of this. We may sense something in original blues and jazz that we prefer to later versions of it, but the kind of narrative worlds and illusions that operate within stories just aren't there. Completely different ballgame.

duotone

Think it’s about time I started the last series of Better Call Saul.

fretmeister

Timcito said:

goldtop said:

Timcito said:

As I say, I'm all for equal representation, but ...

In a world where every artistic innovation from any minority is 'borrowed' and monetised by rich white guys, this is a weird take.

(Is it OK if I carry on playing the blues, or is that different?)

I realize you're making an attempt at sarcasm, but It really is different. Music is a much more abstract form of expression than a story, even more so a film, where we imagine an alternative reality bound by and infused with artistic design. Such stories mirror the real world to such an extent that we apply the 'suspension of disbelief': we imagine that the images and actions we see on the screen are actually happening 

When someone makes a story using famous characters, I think part of this suspension of disbelief involves an expectation that they will remain (relatively) true to the originals. If I enjoyed a Sherlock Holmes story in the past, part of that enjoyment will have been the way that characters and their environments were constructed. Play around with this and you risk allowing the pleasurable illusion we enjoyed in the first place to fall apart. 

Music has nothing of this. We may sense something in original blues and jazz that we prefer to later versions of it, but the kind of narrative worlds and illusions that operate within stories just aren't there. Completely different ballgame.

Every new story about any character is a risk. 
Even for ACD, he took a enormous gamble to come back and write 'Hound' after the Falls.

Suspension of disbelief is a minute-by-minute thing that can be ruined by anything. But risk is always needed to move characters forward. Even in the original books we learned a little more about Holmes and Watson than we knew before and I have no doubt at the time a good portion of readers were unhappy with something.

Did you even try 'Elementary' or did you judge a book by its cover and decide to be upset based on nothing other than the casting?

breakstuff

duotone said:

Think it’s about time I started the last series of Better Call Saul.

You want be disappointed, it's brilliant.

goldtop

Timcito said:

goldtop said:

Timcito said:

As I say, I'm all for equal representation, but ...

In a world where every artistic innovation from any minority is 'borrowed' and monetised by rich white guys, this is a weird take.

(Is it OK if I carry on playing the blues, or is that different?)

I realize you're making an attempt at sarcasm, but It really is different. Music is a much more abstract form of expression than a story, even more so a film, where we imagine an alternative reality bound by and infused with artistic design. Such stories mirror the real world to such an extent that we apply the 'suspension of disbelief': we imagine that the images and actions we see on the screen are actually happening 

When someone makes a story using famous characters, I think part of this suspension of disbelief involves an expectation that they will remain (relatively) true to the originals. If I enjoyed a Sherlock Holmes story in the past, part of that enjoyment will have been the way that characters and their environments were constructed. Play around with this and you risk allowing the pleasurable illusion we enjoyed in the first place to fall apart. 

Music has nothing of this. We may sense something in original blues and jazz that we prefer to later versions of it, but the kind of narrative worlds and illusions that operate within stories just aren't there. Completely different ballgame.

Yes, they're different. One is a fictional world where all sorts of things are possible - that's the whole point. The other is the real world, where actual people suffer. 

But you are bent out of shape because your imagination is not match for your ideas on race. Sadly, you're not alone:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68739588

https://www.indy100.com/tv/rings-of-power-lotr-black-hobbits

IIRC, there was a whole "you can't have black mermaids" thing over Disney, too.

Timcito

goldtop said:

Timcito said:

goldtop said:

Timcito said:

As I say, I'm all for equal representation, but ...

In a world where every artistic innovation from any minority is 'borrowed' and monetised by rich white guys, this is a weird take.

(Is it OK if I carry on playing the blues, or is that different?)

I realize you're making an attempt at sarcasm, but It really is different. Music is a much more abstract form of expression than a story, even more so a film, where we imagine an alternative reality bound by and infused with artistic design. Such stories mirror the real world to such an extent that we apply the 'suspension of disbelief': we imagine that the images and actions we see on the screen are actually happening 

When someone makes a story using famous characters, I think part of this suspension of disbelief involves an expectation that they will remain (relatively) true to the originals. If I enjoyed a Sherlock Holmes story in the past, part of that enjoyment will have been the way that characters and their environments were constructed. Play around with this and you risk allowing the pleasurable illusion we enjoyed in the first place to fall apart. 

Music has nothing of this. We may sense something in original blues and jazz that we prefer to later versions of it, but the kind of narrative worlds and illusions that operate within stories just aren't there. Completely different ballgame.

Yes, they're different. One is a fictional world where all sorts of things are possible - that's the whole point. The other is the real world, where actual people suffer. 

But you are bent out of shape because your imagination is not match for your ideas on race. Sadly, you're not alone:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68739588

https://www.indy100.com/tv/rings-of-power-lotr-black-hobbits

IIRC, there was a whole "you can't have black mermaids" thing over Disney, too.

There ya go - 'bent out of shape.' Why do that - attempt to trash opposing opinions to your own by attacking the  people who hold them as somehow emotional, issue-driven, and hostile? I'm not 'bent out of shape'; I simply saw the thread and responded. I have no emotional investment or passionate position to defend here. I just prefer more faithful renditions of original narrative works than you do, that's all, and posted to say as much. So could we please leave out the sneering 'bent out of shape' bit and the nasty snipe that the reason I don't want Lucy Lu as Dr. Watson is that I lack the expansive imagination that you seem to enjoy?

 I do love imaginative versions of works within what I would consider reasonable parameters set by the author. Franco Zeffirelli's 1968 Romeo and Juliet was wonderful, in my view, for example. However, the Leonardo di Caprio version, which set the story in the modern era was not. Part of the reason, in this case, is that one aspect of historical drama I like is precisely that - the historical recreation. I do not generally want directors attempting to 'make it relevant' by updating everything. But not everyone agrees, and that's fine. I think there was an updated version of Macbeth in the 90s with Al Pacino. Not my thing, but I get that some people like a much freer interpretation of classic works and characters. 

I'm guessing part of the reason for your feeling of entitlement to fire off a personal attack as opposed to respectfully disagreeing in part comes down to the fact that PC issues of gender and race are involved. Lucy Lu is a woman and she's Asian-American, and in the present moral climate anyone who suggests these qualities may or should make her less suitable for certain acting roles is immediately going to come under emotional fire from certain quarters. I don't see it like that. Race and gender, like any other feature of an actor's makeup will make him or her more or less suitable for a part, in my view. This is no more sexist or racist that it would be elitist to turn down a job applicant who lacked the proper qualifications for a post.

fretmeister

So you’ve never even given it a chance then?

Timcito

fretmeister said:

So you’ve never even given it a chance then?

I've seen parts of it often. I have a TV in the kitchen which I switch on whenever I'm cooking, so I frequently have half an eye and ear to all kinds of shows that I wouldn't normally choose to sit down and watch. My impression was, yes, it looked okay, but it wasn't anything that stood out as being one that inspired me to pause as other some other shows do and have done: It looked well acted, it seemed to have reasonably good stories, but as far as being a hit for me, it did have the significant downside I mentioned: that instead of making the artistic, time-consuming, and no doubt, expensive effort to genuinely get to grips with the characters and the era, they seemed to have taken a short cut to success by creating yet another American crime drama (with one Englishman thrown in for novelty) and then sticking famous character labels on the two leads to help distinguish the show from all the other crime dramas served up to US audiences at primetime. Holmes was a bit quirky, wasn't he (Hey, any of you guys actually read this crap?)? Let's give our (ahem!) Sherlock Holmes ... wait for it ...mental issues!! Brilliant! If he's got mental issues and he's quirkily brilliant, then, dammit, we've got us a Sherlock Holmes  to stand among the best of 'em. Now what about Dr. Watson ... Hey, I got a great idea! ....

I'm certainly glad they didn't exercise a similar stroke of 'imaginative' brilliance by putting Vikings in present day Chicago with a ... you fill in the blank! ... to play the role of Ragnar Lothbrok.   

boogieman

breakstuff said:

duotone said:

Think it’s about time I started the last series of Better Call Saul.

You want be disappointed, it's brilliant.

Certainly is.  I even enjoyed the whole thing more than Breaking Bad, and that was a hard act to beat.  

breakstuff

boogieman said:

breakstuff said:

duotone said:

Think it’s about time I started the last series of Better Call Saul.

You want be disappointed, it's brilliant.

Certainly is.  I even enjoyed the whole thing more than Breaking Bad, and that was a hard act to beat.  

Yep, me too. As brilliant as BB is, BCS has so much more depth to it. It's so well written.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

breakstuff said:

boogieman said:

breakstuff said:

duotone said:

Think it’s about time I started the last series of Better Call Saul.

You want be disappointed, it's brilliant.

Certainly is.  I even enjoyed the whole thing more than Breaking Bad, and that was a hard act to beat.  

Yep, me too. As brilliant as BB is, BCS has so much more depth to it. It's so well written.

I've watched that final season twice. Just hearing mention of it in this thread is tempting me to watch it all a third time - it really is that good!

BluesLover

Traces on bbc iPlayer is good.
The professor was also Lydia in breaking bad!

goldtop

Finished watching Succession (Sky/Now) last night. Great series with an inevitably annoying ending. To be honest, though, the double-helicopter crash I was hoping for would have been a cop-out. 

We've got Sky's Chernobyl series lined up next - any good?