Will Micromesh take out these dents in stainless steel frets?

andy_k

WezV said:

the allparts example is different as its not a finished playable guitar.   They bang the frets in and bevel the ends.... that's it.   You can't expect an allparts neck to be playable without a level and dress.  you might get lucky that it does play okay from the box, but it will certainly play better after a  bit of attention

This is a finished guitar, so should be playable. It is. The frets are as level as a non B-stock guitar.   They could be dressed better, but that's it.   

I can't be sure if its marks from installing or levelling, but the last pic looks exactly like a ridge of leveling marks down the center of the fret.

I'm also not sure what issue people are seeing with the truss rod.   It doesn't look as nice as a high end guitar with spoke wheel, but it looks consistent with a new far eastern truss rod. They rarely look pretty, which is why most prefer to hide them.  The holes may be slightly out of round, but not massively so.  This style of truss rod can get chewed up really easily though.
The black bits could be from any number of processes during manufacture, i expect there was an attempt to colour it in.
 

Sure, I get that.
These things are mass produced these days, and I am sure some manufacturers still use hammers to put in frets, but I think when they are building at scale they will be pressing them in.
One part of the process I didn't mention is the crowning.
This is probably the most important part, after getting them installed in the first place, and is required after levelling- to remove the flat spot, this can't be removed by polishing.
I'm sure we all know this, I'm just explaining it as I missed out that part of the process earlier.
The last 4 Allparts necks I used were all perfectly playable without needing to be levelled, crowned and polished, sure they could have been better, but they are perfectly fine until I NEED to have it done, which is an expensive job on a cheap part.
Honestly, some of the frets on my guitars look worse than the pics as a result of never having been played on-the dusty end on the top 3 strings, caused by corrosion, just as a consequence of time.
I think the OP's issue is that he is Maybe, just maybe, expecting too much from a 'B'stock budget instrument, effectively a return or defective product.
At some point, when you add up the value of the parts, EMG, Tusq, Grovers, SS frets there will not be a lot left for QC, something has to give. If it was bought as a brand new instrument, there would possibly be more cause for complaint, as the truss rod wheel has seen a lot of use, although it is probably a budget piece of metal. The black finish has flaked, and the holes are worn, indicating at least a few operations, this would not be the case on a new instrument.
What a strange world we live in, when a guitar can be seen as only being worth the sum of its second hand parts added up, not including the wood that holds it all together.
As a partscaster builder-I know this only too well.

ToneControl

andy_k said:

Re-their response, I think that is fair enough really, you do get what you pay for.
If those are the only faults, and you got a healthy discount in the first place, it is probably worth it to just try and forget about it, or have a go at fixing it yourself, The frets will polish themselves with time-if you are playing a lot in that area, and I'd guess paying for somebody to fix it will be expensive, given the excuse that they are stainless.
Out of interest, what is the guitar, and what did you pay? I know you said they were originally £500 new, just wondering what a 'B stock' discount is?

it's this model
Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKNT Flame Burst – Thomann UK

it's up for £355 I assume the colour is less popular than this otherwise identical one for £389: Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKBL Flame Burst – Thomann UK

£355 plus duty, vat and courier fees is about £455;  for the nicer colour just under £500

This one has EMG pickups, if we knock off £130 for those, we are talking £325-£370 for the underlying guitar if it had Roswell pickups

Comparing that with the other HBs I have bought, for £150-£180 they had no fret finishing issues
Their most expensive hard-tail LP clones are £300+duty/vat with the EMGs fitted, so about £385 in total

Basically the Amarok is their most expensive model by a long way, it's not a cheapy

The website defines B stock like this:   

B-Stock with Full Warranty : Return that may have slight traces of use.

the staff have said the same when I have asked on the phone or in chat sessions

so B-stock should just be cosmetic issues
these frets really grind on the strings, you can feel it if you bend the strings

ToneControl

andy_k said:

WezV said:

the allparts example is different as its not a finished playable guitar.   They bang the frets in and bevel the ends.... that's it.   You can't expect an allparts neck to be playable without a level and dress.  you might get lucky that it does play okay from the box, but it will certainly play better after a  bit of attention

This is a finished guitar, so should be playable. It is. The frets are as level as a non B-stock guitar.   They could be dressed better, but that's it.   

I can't be sure if its marks from installing or levelling, but the last pic looks exactly like a ridge of leveling marks down the center of the fret.

I'm also not sure what issue people are seeing with the truss rod.   It doesn't look as nice as a high end guitar with spoke wheel, but it looks consistent with a new far eastern truss rod. They rarely look pretty, which is why most prefer to hide them.  The holes may be slightly out of round, but not massively so.  This style of truss rod can get chewed up really easily though.
The black bits could be from any number of processes during manufacture, i expect there was an attempt to colour it in.
 

Sure, I get that.
These things are mass produced these days, and I am sure some manufacturers still use hammers to put in frets, but I think when they are building at scale they will be pressing them in.
One part of the process I didn't mention is the crowning.
This is probably the most important part, after getting them installed in the first place, and is required after levelling- to remove the flat spot, this can't be removed by polishing.
I'm sure we all know this, I'm just explaining it as I missed out that part of the process earlier.
The last 4 Allparts necks I used were all perfectly playable without needing to be levelled, crowned and polished, sure they could have been better, but they are perfectly fine until I NEED to have it done, which is an expensive job on a cheap part.
Honestly, some of the frets on my guitars look worse than the pics as a result of never having been played on-the dusty end on the top 3 strings, caused by corrosion, just as a consequence of time.
I think the OP's issue is that he is Maybe, just maybe, expecting too much from a 'B'stock budget instrument, effectively a return or defective product.
At some point, when you add up the value of the parts, EMG, Tusq, Grovers, SS frets there will not be a lot left for QC, something has to give. If it was bought as a brand new instrument, there would possibly be more cause for complaint, as the truss rod wheel has seen a lot of use, although it is probably a budget piece of metal. The black finish has flaked, and the holes are worn, indicating at least a few operations, this would not be the case on a new instrument.
What a strange world we live in, when a guitar can be seen as only being worth the sum of its second hand parts added up, not including the wood that holds it all together.
As a partscaster builder-I know this only too well.

fair points, but as I said in my post I posted before I saw this reply, this guitar is the top of the range model for Thomann, I've never had an issue with frets on any other, much cheaper Thomann model (I bought a few), and Thomann say B-stock is solely a cosmetic grading

WezV

andy_k said:

 as the truss rod wheel has seen a lot of use, although it is probably a budget piece of metal. The black finish has flaked, and the holes are worn, indicating at least a few operations, this would not be the case on a new instrument.

Take a look at the truss rod pic on this schecter from their own website - which sells for at least 3 times the price of the HB is question 
https://www.schecterguitars.com/vault/keith-merrow-km-7-mk-ii-natural-pearl-2-detail


If that black stuff is finish that's come off on the HB, it's an issue with whatever they have painted it with... not an issue with over use.   one operation can deform the hole, especially if an ill fitting tool is used. I don't think there is enough wear to say its any more than that.  note the website shows a shiny wheel

andy_k

ToneControl said:

andy_k said:

Re-their response, I think that is fair enough really, you do get what you pay for.
If those are the only faults, and you got a healthy discount in the first place, it is probably worth it to just try and forget about it, or have a go at fixing it yourself, The frets will polish themselves with time-if you are playing a lot in that area, and I'd guess paying for somebody to fix it will be expensive, given the excuse that they are stainless.
Out of interest, what is the guitar, and what did you pay? I know you said they were originally £500 new, just wondering what a 'B stock' discount is?

it's this model
Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKNT Flame Burst – Thomann UK

it's up for £355 I assume the colour is less popular than this otherwise identical one for £389: Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKBL Flame Burst – Thomann UK

£355 plus duty, vat and courier fees is about £455;  for the nicer colour just under £500

This one has EMG pickups, if we knock off £130 for those, we are talking £325-£370 for the underlying guitar if it had Roswell pickups

Comparing that with the other HBs I have bought, for £150-£180 they had no fret finishing issues
Their most expensive hard-tail LP clones are £300+duty/vat with the EMGs fitted, so about £385 in total

Basically the Amarok is their most expensive model by a long way, it's not a cheapy

The website defines B stock like this:   

B-Stock with Full Warranty : Return that may have slight traces of use.

the staff have said the same when I have asked on the phone or in chat sessions

so B-stock should just be cosmetic issues
these frets really grind on the strings, you can feel it if you bend the strings

So what did you actually pay, as a 'B'stock item? (if you don'y mind me asking)
It is not a bad looking guitar, who knows what the defects could be on another 'B'stock one?
If you like it otherwise, I'd get a set of fret rubbers and the marks will go, but you will have to be careful not to push the problem onto other now higher frets ( extremely doubtful on SS, but cannot say how deep the ridges are from your pics, they don't look deep at all)
Normal playing will improve the feel over time, maybe longer with SS.

digitalscream

My personal opinion? A set of fret rubbers from Crimson is £19. If the B-stock discount was any more than that and a set of strings, it's worth half an hour of your time to just buy the fret rubbers and fix it. If you were closer, I'd let you borrow mine!

Slash'N'burn

Really cheap guitars /£25 Ukulele's come with smooth frets - i.e.as smooth as the fretwire is produced before fitting, and not touched afterwards. They may not be perfectly level on a cheap guitar, but they are at least smooth, as in the fitting process hasn't damaged the surface.

Something has badly gone wrong here IMO

ToneControl

digitalscream said:

My personal opinion? A set of fret rubbers from Crimson is £19. If the B-stock discount was any more than that and a set of strings, it's worth half an hour of your time to just buy the fret rubbers and fix it. If you were closer, I'd let you borrow mine!

do  fret rubbers do a different job, or the same as micromesh?

digitalscream

ToneControl said:

digitalscream said:

My personal opinion? A set of fret rubbers from Crimson is £19. If the B-stock discount was any more than that and a set of strings, it's worth half an hour of your time to just buy the fret rubbers and fix it. If you were closer, I'd let you borrow mine!

do  fret rubbers do a different job, or the same as micromesh?

Well, I think it's the same job but done slightly differently. I can't comment on micromesh, because I've only used fret rubbers (and they worked brilliantly on my Jaden Rose with stainless steel frets with no need to mask the fretboard off).

WezV

Slash'N'burn said:

Really cheap guitars /£25 Ukulele's come with smooth frets - i.e.as smooth as the fretwire is produced before fitting, and not touched afterwards. They may not be perfectly level on a cheap guitar, but they are at least smooth, as in the fitting process hasn't damaged the surface.

Something has badly gone wrong here IMO

Only if you would rather have perfectly smooth uneven frets.   once you get into leveling and dressing tool marks will occur, and will need extra steps to fully remove.    

ToneControl said:

digitalscream said:

My personal opinion? A set of fret rubbers from Crimson is £19. If the B-stock discount was any more than that and a set of strings, it's worth half an hour of your time to just buy the fret rubbers and fix it. If you were closer, I'd let you borrow mine!

do  fret rubbers do a different job, or the same as micromesh?

i prefer micromesh after 400g wet and dry.  I have some fret rubbers but hardly use them.  Its the same job though, polishing out tool marks from an earlier process... just a choice on which abrasive to use. 

you just have to make sure the marks from the previous step are removed before going to the next 

ToneControl

andy_k said:

ToneControl said:

andy_k said:

Re-their response, I think that is fair enough really, you do get what you pay for.
If those are the only faults, and you got a healthy discount in the first place, it is probably worth it to just try and forget about it, or have a go at fixing it yourself, The frets will polish themselves with time-if you are playing a lot in that area, and I'd guess paying for somebody to fix it will be expensive, given the excuse that they are stainless.
Out of interest, what is the guitar, and what did you pay? I know you said they were originally £500 new, just wondering what a 'B stock' discount is?

it's this model
Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKNT Flame Burst – Thomann UK

it's up for £355 I assume the colour is less popular than this otherwise identical one for £389: Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKBL Flame Burst – Thomann UK

£355 plus duty, vat and courier fees is about £455;  for the nicer colour just under £500

This one has EMG pickups, if we knock off £130 for those, we are talking £325-£370 for the underlying guitar if it had Roswell pickups

Comparing that with the other HBs I have bought, for £150-£180 they had no fret finishing issues
Their most expensive hard-tail LP clones are £300+duty/vat with the EMGs fitted, so about £385 in total

Basically the Amarok is their most expensive model by a long way, it's not a cheapy

The website defines B stock like this:   

B-Stock with Full Warranty : Return that may have slight traces of use.

the staff have said the same when I have asked on the phone or in chat sessions

so B-stock should just be cosmetic issues
these frets really grind on the strings, you can feel it if you bend the strings

So what did you actually pay, as a 'B'stock item? (if you don'y mind me asking)
It is not a bad looking guitar, who knows what the defects could be on another 'B'stock one?
If you like it otherwise, I'd get a set of fret rubbers and the marks will go, but you will have to be careful not to push the problem onto other now higher frets ( extremely doubtful on SS, but cannot say how deep the ridges are from your pics, they don't look deep at all)
Normal playing will improve the feel over time, maybe longer with SS.

I paid £280 + taxes, etc, so about £360, for Harley Benton this is an expensive, top-end guitar, made in Indonesia
They usually give around 10% off for B stock, sometimes more, as I say though, they state issues will only be "cosmetic".
I assumed this one was cheaper because it was a baritone, the non-baritone B stocks were only 10% off, they had ones at this price in another colour too, so I don't think it was because this one was worse than others

I bought 5 other Harley Benton B stock models, for around half this price, all were fine except one had a dent from rough handling, and one had 2 raised frets, and a bit of polish in the fingerboard grain, that's been sent back to get a replacement with a straight neck.

I don't think this will play in, especially given that it's stainless steel frets

ICBM

ToneControl said:

I don't think this will play in, especially given that it's stainless steel frets

It definitely won't, you will need to smooth them with something abrasive.

Given that they've already made a fairly generous offer for fitting it with the wrong pots, personally I would accept that and keep it. It's not much work to fix the frets and nearly no cost, a roll of masking tape and a sheet of 400-600 grit wet and dry paper will be enough.

andy_k

ToneControl said:

andy_k said:

ToneControl said:

andy_k said:

Re-their response, I think that is fair enough really, you do get what you pay for.
If those are the only faults, and you got a healthy discount in the first place, it is probably worth it to just try and forget about it, or have a go at fixing it yourself, The frets will polish themselves with time-if you are playing a lot in that area, and I'd guess paying for somebody to fix it will be expensive, given the excuse that they are stainless.
Out of interest, what is the guitar, and what did you pay? I know you said they were originally £500 new, just wondering what a 'B stock' discount is?

it's this model
Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKNT Flame Burst – Thomann UK

it's up for £355 I assume the colour is less popular than this otherwise identical one for £389: Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKBL Flame Burst – Thomann UK

£355 plus duty, vat and courier fees is about £455;  for the nicer colour just under £500

This one has EMG pickups, if we knock off £130 for those, we are talking £325-£370 for the underlying guitar if it had Roswell pickups

Comparing that with the other HBs I have bought, for £150-£180 they had no fret finishing issues
Their most expensive hard-tail LP clones are £300+duty/vat with the EMGs fitted, so about £385 in total

Basically the Amarok is their most expensive model by a long way, it's not a cheapy

The website defines B stock like this:   

B-Stock with Full Warranty : Return that may have slight traces of use.

the staff have said the same when I have asked on the phone or in chat sessions

so B-stock should just be cosmetic issues
these frets really grind on the strings, you can feel it if you bend the strings

So what did you actually pay, as a 'B'stock item? (if you don'y mind me asking)
It is not a bad looking guitar, who knows what the defects could be on another 'B'stock one?
If you like it otherwise, I'd get a set of fret rubbers and the marks will go, but you will have to be careful not to push the problem onto other now higher frets ( extremely doubtful on SS, but cannot say how deep the ridges are from your pics, they don't look deep at all)
Normal playing will improve the feel over time, maybe longer with SS.

I paid £280 + taxes, etc, so about £360, for Harley Benton this is an expensive, top-end guitar, made in Indonesia
They usually give around 10% off for B stock, sometimes more, as I say though, they state issues will only be "cosmetic".
I assumed this one was cheaper because it was a baritone, the non-baritone B stocks were only 10% off, they had ones at this price in another colour too, so I don't think it was because this one was worse than others

I bought 5 other Harley Benton B stock models, for around half this price, all were fine except one had a dent from rough handling, and one had 2 raised frets, and a bit of polish in the fingerboard grain, that's been sent back to get a replacement with a straight neck.

I don't think this will play in, especially given that it's stainless steel frets

I know it is all relative, but it sounds like you got a decent discount.
We can go round and round with arguments over whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day, you have bought a second hand instrument, with some additional buyers rights, ie-the right to return it for a full refund. I suspect they may try to charge you something as the product was sold as described, and defects can be argued, 'B' stock kind of covers them for a lot of things. Caveat Emptor effectively covers it.
I'm looking really hard at the pics, and to be honest it would bug me too, but I would rather fix it myself than return it- if I really wanted that particular model and spec.
As I said earlier, the parts alone make up a large part of the cost of this thing, and it is ridiculous that these days we expect the best quality of everything for peanuts.
I have recently began to feel that this level of desire is one of the main causes of the problems in our world.
It is my own choice to think long and hard about the true cost of that shiny thing I want at a rock bottom price, somebody, somewhere is being exploited at the end of the day.
I don't mean that to sound as a knock at you personally, it just saddens me that true craftsmanship is worth nothing these days.
If you have bought a few of these, you obviously haven't had the same thoughts as me, but perhaps you are now seeing the limits of what you can actually expect at the budget range.
Stainless frets are usually a big upcharge, for a reason, they are much more labour intensive and done at a budget there will be compromises.
At least you got a discount, and if you return it, the next buyer might be able to see past the issues, but I suspect he won't be getting any more discount than you did.

Gassage

! don't think those are dents- I think it's porosity/pitting in the stainless steel. 

ToneControl

andy_k said:

ToneControl said:

andy_k said:

ToneControl said:

andy_k said:

Re-their response, I think that is fair enough really, you do get what you pay for.
If those are the only faults, and you got a healthy discount in the first place, it is probably worth it to just try and forget about it, or have a go at fixing it yourself, The frets will polish themselves with time-if you are playing a lot in that area, and I'd guess paying for somebody to fix it will be expensive, given the excuse that they are stainless.
Out of interest, what is the guitar, and what did you pay? I know you said they were originally £500 new, just wondering what a 'B stock' discount is?

it's this model
Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKNT Flame Burst – Thomann UK

it's up for £355 I assume the colour is less popular than this otherwise identical one for £389: Harley Benton Amarok-BT BKBL Flame Burst – Thomann UK

£355 plus duty, vat and courier fees is about £455;  for the nicer colour just under £500

This one has EMG pickups, if we knock off £130 for those, we are talking £325-£370 for the underlying guitar if it had Roswell pickups

Comparing that with the other HBs I have bought, for £150-£180 they had no fret finishing issues
Their most expensive hard-tail LP clones are £300+duty/vat with the EMGs fitted, so about £385 in total

Basically the Amarok is their most expensive model by a long way, it's not a cheapy

The website defines B stock like this:   

B-Stock with Full Warranty : Return that may have slight traces of use.

the staff have said the same when I have asked on the phone or in chat sessions

so B-stock should just be cosmetic issues
these frets really grind on the strings, you can feel it if you bend the strings

So what did you actually pay, as a 'B'stock item? (if you don'y mind me asking)
It is not a bad looking guitar, who knows what the defects could be on another 'B'stock one?
If you like it otherwise, I'd get a set of fret rubbers and the marks will go, but you will have to be careful not to push the problem onto other now higher frets ( extremely doubtful on SS, but cannot say how deep the ridges are from your pics, they don't look deep at all)
Normal playing will improve the feel over time, maybe longer with SS.

I paid £280 + taxes, etc, so about £360, for Harley Benton this is an expensive, top-end guitar, made in Indonesia
They usually give around 10% off for B stock, sometimes more, as I say though, they state issues will only be "cosmetic".
I assumed this one was cheaper because it was a baritone, the non-baritone B stocks were only 10% off, they had ones at this price in another colour too, so I don't think it was because this one was worse than others

I bought 5 other Harley Benton B stock models, for around half this price, all were fine except one had a dent from rough handling, and one had 2 raised frets, and a bit of polish in the fingerboard grain, that's been sent back to get a replacement with a straight neck.

I don't think this will play in, especially given that it's stainless steel frets

I know it is all relative, but it sounds like you got a decent discount.
We can go round and round with arguments over whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day, you have bought a second hand instrument, with some additional buyers rights, ie-the right to return it for a full refund. I suspect they may try to charge you something as the product was sold as described, and defects can be argued, 'B' stock kind of covers them for a lot of things. Caveat Emptor effectively covers it.
I'm looking really hard at the pics, and to be honest it would bug me too, but I would rather fix it myself than return it- if I really wanted that particular model and spec.
As I said earlier, the parts alone make up a large part of the cost of this thing, and it is ridiculous that these days we expect the best quality of everything for peanuts.
I have recently began to feel that this level of desire is one of the main causes of the problems in our world.
It is my own choice to think long and hard about the true cost of that shiny thing I want at a rock bottom price, somebody, somewhere is being exploited at the end of the day.
I don't mean that to sound as a knock at you personally, it just saddens me that true craftsmanship is worth nothing these days.
If you have bought a few of these, you obviously haven't had the same thoughts as me, but perhaps you are now seeing the limits of what you can actually expect at the budget range.
Stainless frets are usually a big upcharge, for a reason, they are much more labour intensive and done at a budget there will be compromises.
At least you got a discount, and if you return it, the next buyer might be able to see past the issues, but I suspect he won't be getting any more discount than you did.

it's actually me experimenting after primarily buying high-quality first-world-made stuff for the last 13 years, I buy top-notch acoustics USA or UK made, and have bought quite a few top USA brand electric guitars, and many of the boutique valve amps brands

I know that we get our TVs, phones, etc built in areas with lower labour costs, there's no reason that East Asia can't make guitars too, and I saw lots of reviews saying the Harley Benton stuff is worth trying. We know that PRS and Schecter make excellent guitars in Korea.

I've gone for trying the upper-end of the Harley Benton range, from Indonesia/Korea, which I was guessing was probably comparable quality to Mexican Fenders.  I also fancy learning some maintenance skills on less pricey instruments

They have all been easily comparable to Mex Fenders, at much lower cost. My main issue is that the Roswell pickups all seem to have too much mids on the neck positions.

My personal stance is that if I'm buying a hand-made instrument, made by a master luthier, in the UK or USA, I expect to pay properly for that. However, for stuff that's all CNC-machined and assembled on a production line in a first world country, I'm thinking "why pay extra for something largely machine-made just to have 'made in USA' on the headstock?

btw They already offered to pay return postage, since it's not "as described". The defects are not just cosmetic, which is their definition of B-stock

I don't look upon buying cheaper stuff made in the Far East as "exploiting" people, we'd need to know what the factory was like, labour conditions and wages, and what quality of life people would have otherwise. Korea has gone to being a very affluent country very quickly, I don't see that as exploitation.

I'd like to see more attention paid to provenance of goods made overseas, I'm now getting very uncomfortable about buying Chinese-made items, but it's hard to avoid sometimes

Anyway, me being an annoying customer should help future buyers