Legalising Cannabis

Deadman

ICBM said:

proggy said:

I understand there's a percentage of drug users turning to prostitution to feed their habit, but whether the drugs are legal or not they would still need money to buy them. You couldn't just make crack cocaine legal and give it away for free!

Why not?

That's actually a serious question. If it was available free, on prescription, to users then you would eliminate all the problems of the current way it's supplied and reduce it to simply managing the health problems of the drug itself, which we already have anyway now.

Look at it rationally. Prohibition doesn't work, it only causes more harm - there's a century of evidence that conclusively proves that. Perhaps it's time to think about how to minimise the harm, rather than keep on banging our heads against the same wall and expecting it to stop hurting.

Let's just say then, you live in sheltered housing. You're 85. You want to sit in your limited shared yard space on a hot summer's day, only the guy/s who live below you also have the same idea and want to smoke weed all day, every day and you can't sit out without being subjected to their hallucinogenic smoke. Not only that, if you want to open your windows, same effect. That's just one scenario.

Edit: I realise I'm sounding super serious here, so just imagine that spoken in the voice of Alan Partridge.

WiresDreamDisasters

Deadman said:

Edit: I realise I'm sounding super serious here, so just imagine that spoken in the voice of Alan Partridge.

And for fairness, just imagine everything ICBM is saying in the voice of Tyres from the TV show SPACED

WiresDreamDisasters

I mean, honestly I don't know how many times I can ask for evidence without resorting to my usual piss taking. I tried to take the topic seriously, but none of the deeper points have been addressed by anyone.

The point for me is; this utopian unreasonable thinking is dangerous. Awww it'll be alright simply isn't good enough when we're talking about substances that kill people, destroy families, and harm society.

And no amount of alcohol whataboutery changes that. Legalising weed is one thing; probably a strong argument for it. But legalising heroin? Meth? PCP? Cocaine? Bath Salts? Clarky Cat? Won't someone think of the Clarky!!!

What about speedballs? Is that some sort of buy one get one free deal in your local DRUGSDA or SMACKALDI ? Could I pop into Sainsbury's at 10:42 at night and buy up all the old stock that's gonna be thrown out that day for super pittance??

These are important questions!

ICBM

Deadman said:

Strictly for those who are very much 'for' legalising, would you restrict where it could be used? i.e. workplaces? Pub beer gardens? Cars? Back gardens? I see a problem (all passive that would have repercussions for bystanders) for it being allowed in any/all of those.

Of course. You aren't allowed to drink alcohol or smoke tobacco freely at will, so why should you with any other drug? Legalisation doesn't mean a free-for-all, it means proper regulations and laws just like we have for the already legal drugs. There are restrictions on supply to children, use before driving, use in public places, inside buildings, workplace regulations both legal and by individual employers, etc, which we all accept as perfectly normal for two extremely popular drugs.

I really don't understand why most people can't see why there is no real distinction.

And I'm completely aware that there are problems associated with alcohol and tobacco use too. What's the solution to that - ban them? If not, why not?

Deadman

ICBM said:

Deadman said:

Strictly for those who are very much 'for' legalising, would you restrict where it could be used? i.e. workplaces? Pub beer gardens? Cars? Back gardens? I see a problem (all passive that would have repercussions for bystanders) for it being allowed in any/all of those.

Of course. You aren't allowed to drink alcohol or smoke tobacco freely at will, so why should you with any other drug? Legalisation doesn't mean a free-for-all, it means proper regulations and laws just like we have for the already legal drugs. There are restrictions on supply to children, use before driving, use in public places, inside buildings, workplace regulations both legal and by individual employers, etc, which we all accept as perfectly normal for two extremely popular drugs.

I really don't understand why most people can't see why there is no real distinction.

And I'm completely aware that there are problems associated with alcohol and tobacco use too. What's the solution to that - ban them? If not, why not?

Alcohol use doesn't create a passive problem.

Baccy does. It's just a smelly nuisance though in normality.

Spliffs are different. Innit.

LastMantra

Tobacco seems to be heading that way. Or is just that people are realising how bad it is? I don't know. 

zepp76

Deadman said:

ICBM said:

proggy said:

I understand there's a percentage of drug users turning to prostitution to feed their habit, but whether the drugs are legal or not they would still need money to buy them. You couldn't just make crack cocaine legal and give it away for free!

Why not?

That's actually a serious question. If it was available free, on prescription, to users then you would eliminate all the problems of the current way it's supplied and reduce it to simply managing the health problems of the drug itself, which we already have anyway now.

Look at it rationally. Prohibition doesn't work, it only causes more harm - there's a century of evidence that conclusively proves that. Perhaps it's time to think about how to minimise the harm, rather than keep on banging our heads against the same wall and expecting it to stop hurting.

Let's just say then, you live in sheltered housing. You're 85. You want to sit in your limited shared yard space on a hot summer's day, only the guy/s who live below you also have the same idea and want to smoke weed all day, every day and you can't sit out without being subjected to their hallucinogenic smoke. Not only that, if you want to open your windows, same effect. That's just one scenario.

Edit: I realise I'm sounding super serious here, so just imagine that spoken in the voice of Alan Partridge.

Be careful with that kind of thinking, you'll be called a "square" on here for that!  I had exactly that problem when I first moved in, someone waking and baking and blazing morning noon and night. 

But I have to say, if what they're toking is hallucinogenic that's some good shit! 

LastMantra

I think people should be allowed to grow their own weed for personal use.

I did it for years. 

Before anyone says anything I got caught and did my community service and haven't done it since. I never sold any and paid for the electricity and everything. 

EricTheWeary

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I mean, honestly I don't know how many times I can ask for evidence without resorting to my usual piss taking. I tried to take the topic seriously, but none of the deeper points have been addressed by anyone.

The point for me is; this utopian unreasonable thinking is dangerous. Awww it'll be alright simply isn't good enough when we're talking about substances that kill people, destroy families, and harm society.

And no amount of alcohol whataboutery changes that. Legalising weed is one thing; probably a strong argument for it. But legalising heroin? Meth? PCP? Cocaine? Bath Salts? Clarky Cat? Won't someone think of the Clarky!!!

What about speedballs? Is that some sort of buy one get one free deal in your local DRUGSDA or SMACKALDI ? Could I pop into Sainsbury's at 10:42 at night and buy up all the old stock that's gonna be thrown out that day for super pittance??

These are important questions!

One of the issues when I was reading about the Canadian model is that many retailers didn’t want to sell it. It would be something like the pharmacy section at Tesco and they wouldn’t stock it, didn’t want the association. 

In the U.K. vape shops have sprung up on every street corner to fulfil a demand. However, assuming that cannabis sales would be more strict than vape ones then there might not be a similar pattern and it would actually be quite difficult to get hold of. Another barrier to legal sales becoming the norm. 

WiresDreamDisasters

EricTheWeary said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I mean, honestly I don't know how many times I can ask for evidence without resorting to my usual piss taking. I tried to take the topic seriously, but none of the deeper points have been addressed by anyone.

The point for me is; this utopian unreasonable thinking is dangerous. Awww it'll be alright simply isn't good enough when we're talking about substances that kill people, destroy families, and harm society.

And no amount of alcohol whataboutery changes that. Legalising weed is one thing; probably a strong argument for it. But legalising heroin? Meth? PCP? Cocaine? Bath Salts? Clarky Cat? Won't someone think of the Clarky!!!

What about speedballs? Is that some sort of buy one get one free deal in your local DRUGSDA or SMACKALDI ? Could I pop into Sainsbury's at 10:42 at night and buy up all the old stock that's gonna be thrown out that day for super pittance??

These are important questions!

One of the issues when I was reading about the Canadian model is that many retailers didn’t want to sell it. It would be something like the pharmacy section at Tesco and they wouldn’t stock it, didn’t want the association. 

In the U.K. vape shops have sprung up on every street corner to fulfil a demand. However, assuming that cannabis sales would be more strict than vape ones then there might not be a similar pattern and it would actually be quite difficult to get hold of. Another barrier to legal sales becoming the norm. 

I guess the morality behind selling this stuff is kind of separate to the legality of it. Back to my previous pondering about kids hanging around shops on council estates asking parents to buy them ciggies.... not sure I'd like to see kids doing the same thing with harder stuff.

EricTheWeary

WiresDreamDisasters said:

EricTheWeary said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I mean, honestly I don't know how many times I can ask for evidence without resorting to my usual piss taking. I tried to take the topic seriously, but none of the deeper points have been addressed by anyone.

The point for me is; this utopian unreasonable thinking is dangerous. Awww it'll be alright simply isn't good enough when we're talking about substances that kill people, destroy families, and harm society.

And no amount of alcohol whataboutery changes that. Legalising weed is one thing; probably a strong argument for it. But legalising heroin? Meth? PCP? Cocaine? Bath Salts? Clarky Cat? Won't someone think of the Clarky!!!

What about speedballs? Is that some sort of buy one get one free deal in your local DRUGSDA or SMACKALDI ? Could I pop into Sainsbury's at 10:42 at night and buy up all the old stock that's gonna be thrown out that day for super pittance??

These are important questions!

One of the issues when I was reading about the Canadian model is that many retailers didn’t want to sell it. It would be something like the pharmacy section at Tesco and they wouldn’t stock it, didn’t want the association. 

In the U.K. vape shops have sprung up on every street corner to fulfil a demand. However, assuming that cannabis sales would be more strict than vape ones then there might not be a similar pattern and it would actually be quite difficult to get hold of. Another barrier to legal sales becoming the norm. 

I guess the morality behind selling this stuff is kind of separate to the legality of it. Back to my previous pondering about kids hanging around shops on council estates asking parents to buy them ciggies.... not sure I'd like to see kids doing the same thing with harder stuff.

I think we get a little bit into the ‘CHAV town’ syndrome where the high streets become betting shops, vaping shops, pound shops, tattoo parlours and then cannabis shops. 

I guess in California you can have a lovely out of town boutique shopping experience but not many places in the U.K. can replicate that. So if it’s available on the high street do you have to enforce that it isn’t used in the shop, isn’t used in the street, buying it for your own use and passing it on becomes an offence. It’s quite a high level of regulation. 

In Amsterdam it is decriminalised in certain places ( primarily the cannabis cafes) but still very much an offence elsewhere. 

Sassafras

People are far more likely to harm themselves with illegal street drugs with their impurities and inconsistent potency.
I've come across street drugs that'd been cut with all sorts of lethal crap.
I know there'll probably be people who think drug addicts deserve all they get but it is possible for them to change and become valuable members of society.
Don't see why people should be condemned to death for taking a wrong turn in life.

WiresDreamDisasters

Sassafras said:

People are far more likely to harm themselves with illegal street drugs with their impurities and inconsistent potency.
I've come across street drugs that'd been cut with all sorts of lethal crap.
I know there'll probably be people who think drug addicts deserve all they get but it is possible for them to change and become valuable members of society.
Don't see why people should be condemned to death for taking a wrong turn in life.

Who did that tho?

545454

I'd like to see more evidence of approaches in other countries, and I'm sure in the next few years we will have a better idea of the consequences in the US, Canada etc.

But to turn that slightly on its head, I'd argue that there is significant evidence that current drug policies in the UK don't work in terms of crime stats and health outcomes. 

Unfortunately it's politically toxic, so actually gathering evidence in the UK is going to be difficult. Successive governments won't risk being "soft on drugs" -> large-scale research / trials don't take place -> no evidence gathered -> "there's no evidence that this will work". Good example was Prof David Nutt - advocated for evidence-based policy making, wrote about the relative harms of illegal drugs/alcohol/tobacco, and was sacked as a govt adviser for his efforts.

Stuckfast

The argument that -- alcohol and tobacco are legal and they're harmful; therefore other harmful drugs should be legal -- is a very poor one. It's like saying some murderers can't be brought to justice, therefore no murderers should be brought to justice.

A better argument would be: most harmful drugs are illegal, therefore alcohol and tobacco should be illegal too. But of course that is politically unfeasible.

I will say it's a strange experience reading a long thread on here and repeatedly thinking 'that Drew talks uncommon good sense.'

roundthebend

My youngest son has been smoking weed for a few years. The older one did for a while but has now stopped. I didn't have much care for this subject until it became a focal point for my household in way too many heated situations. To be honest, I'm biased against weed and I'm fed up of hearing about it which makes it difficult to have a useful opinion.

I will say a couple of things. Too often people who are pro weed like to compare to alcohol. That's just a biased angle. Aside from it being a different drug, it's also currently illegal and has never been fully legal. Unlike alcohol which has evolved in this country for centuries so it's a much more complex subject.

And, nobody compares it to tobacco. Or is a very infrequent comparison. It wouldn't help the pro weed side of the argument.

I honestly don't know anyone who is a frequent weed smoker that is enjoying and succeeding in life. Even by their own definitions. I know a few of ex stoners who are doing ok, but most of them talk about how it messed with them and they're glad it wasn't the high strength stuff.

My summary. I don't really care personally. It won't change my life. I might even try it occasionally. I don't think there's a solid case for either side. I would like something to change though, I'm sick of smelling it every time I go out for a walk/run/cycle/drive in my local area.

WiresDreamDisasters

roundthebend said:

My youngest son has been smoking weed for a few years. The older one did for a while but has now stopped. I didn't have much care for this subject until it became a focal point for my household in way too many heated situations. To be honest, I'm biased against weed and I'm fed up of hearing about it which makes it difficult to have a useful opinion.

I will say a couple of things. Too often people who are pro weed like to compare to alcohol. That's just a biased angle. Aside from it being a different drug, it's also currently illegal and has never been fully legal. Unlike alcohol which has evolved in this country for centuries so it's a much more complex subject.

And, nobody compares it to tobacco. Or is a very infrequent comparison. It wouldn't help the pro weed side of the argument.

I honestly don't know anyone who is a frequent weed smoker that is enjoying and succeeding in life. Even by their own definitions. I know a few of ex stoners who are doing ok, but most of them talk about how it messed with them and they're glad it wasn't the high strength stuff.

My summary. I don't really care personally. It won't change my life. I might even try it occasionally. I don't think there's a solid case for either side. I would like something to change though, I'm sick of smelling it every time I go out for a walk/run/cycle/drive in my local area.

What age did they start smoking it? Have you noticed any cognitive impairment?

WiresDreamDisasters

Stuckfast said:

I will say it's a strange experience reading a long thread on here and repeatedly thinking 'that Drew talks uncommon good sense.'

You rotten sod!  

DefaultM

Isn't it sold in the US for medicinal use, and they breed different strains that can treat different conditions?
I think that could be good, but can't imagine everyone just being allowed to get wrecked.

strtdv

If you're going to legalise it you need a framework for doing it so people don't go nuts and smoke lots all the time before driving etc.

The Netherlands legalised (and regulated) cannabis and as far as I know there's no evidence that significantly more people smoke now than before legalisation.
However, the Dutch have a different sort of attitude to personal responsibility to the British. They go to the pub, have 1-2 bottles of Grolsch, and walk/cycle home again, rather than getting wasted. Same with cannabis.