Alternatives to Martin D28?

Mercedes300

I think I'll just keep my opinions to myself. That's what censorship is supposed to achieve, isn't it? Getting back to the subject of acoustic guitars, I think Martin now have such a superb reputation, that they will always be a first choice for most guitarists. after all, nearly all acoustics copy, or at the very least, are influenced by, Martin original designs. 

Mellish

@Mercedes300 ; well you're here to share thoughts, knowledge and ideas, that's what the forum is about. Martin's Re-imagined series can be a bit marmite. I have a friend who just can't get used to the 1 3/4" nut and neck profile, but I love what they've done  

Mellish

Apologies @daveyh for thread hijack. Sorry mate  

Mercedes300

I also love the Martin '00' sized guitars, and have a Japanese 0045 copy that I have owned from new. It has a solid top, but I'm sure the back & sides will be laminate, but i love it. I would dearly like to find a reasonably priced 00-18, or even a 00-21. Everyone insists on a Deadnaught these days, but Bob Dylan and Joan Baez used to fill stadiums, and festivals using 00 sized guitars!

Mellish

@Mercedes300 ; there may be something in Classifieds here, or if not right now then soon. I nearly bought a D-18 from there but someone beat me to it 

Tannin

G'day Mercedes and welcome. I wouldn't get too carried away with Martin's reputation. They are a major manufacturer and the one with more history than any other, but by no means the automatic first choice of most players. There must be a dozen makes at least, probably two or three dozen, which achieve "first choice" status with players in particular styles and particular places. And Martin's reputation for build quality is only fair to mediocre.

There are three or four old Martin models from the 1930s which have achieved iconic status, but nobody in their right mind actually copies them. For one thing, you can't get the timbers anymore. For another they are, by modern standards, primitive with and clunky with (for example) no truss rod. Even Martin don't use those designs anymore, except for a tiny number of instruments badged "Authentic" made especially for dentists and other collectors. 

Times have moved on; modern guitars are vastly more practical, playable, useful instruments than the ones of 90 years ago, made with a vast range of techniques from a huge variety of timbers. And yes, I include the current Martin models in that generalisation: present-day Martins are overpriced and overrated, but very good instruments for all of that. I've seriously considered D-28s and D-18s in the past, only to decide that, while good, I can get still better for the same cost or lower in other makes. I've very much enjoyed a CEO-7 but been put off by the short scale (I never like short scale guitars) and the very ugly Gibson-style black sunburst. And to this day I regret not impulse-buying a wonderful HD-28. I've played other HD-28s and rated them "close but no cigar"; this particular one was a gem .... and I went away and thought about it. When I went back to have another look, it was sold. 

So yes, a top drawer manufacturer, absolutely. But only one of quite a number. 

BigPaulie

Tannin said:

G'day Mercedes and welcome. I wouldn't get too carried away with Martin's reputation. They are a major manufacturer and the one with more history than any other, but by no means the automatic first choice of most players. There must be a dozen makes at least, probably two or three dozen, which achieve "first choice" status with players in particular styles and particular places. And Martin's reputation for build quality is only fair to mediocre.

There are three or four old Martin models from the 1930s which have achieved iconic status, but nobody in their right mind actually copies them. For one thing, you can't get the timbers anymore. For another they are, by modern standards, primitive with and clunky with (for example) no truss rod. Even Martin don't use those designs anymore, except for a tiny number of instruments badged "Authentic" made especially for dentists and other collectors. 

Times have moved on; modern guitars are vastly more practical, playable, useful instruments than the ones of 90 years ago, made with a vast range of techniques from a huge variety of timbers. And yes, I include the current Martin models in that generalisation: present-day Martins are overpriced and overrated, but very good instruments for all of that. I've seriously considered D-28s and D-18s in the past, only to decide that, while good, I can get still better for the same cost or lower in other makes. I've very much enjoyed a CEO-7 but been put off by the short scale (I never like short scale guitars) and the very ugly Gibson-style black sunburst. And to this day I regret not impulse-buying a wonderful HD-28. I've played other HD-28s and rated them "close but no cigar"; this particular one was a gem .... and I went away and thought about it. When I went back to have another look, it was sold. 

So yes, a top drawer manufacturer, absolutely. But only one of quite a number. 

Great, informative, objective post, @Tannin ;

However, in the interest of the title of the thread, would you mind naming a few of those alternative builders/models?

Lewy

Tannin said:

 And Martin's reputation for build quality is only fair to mediocre.

This needs a big opinion warning. It's far from a commonly held perspective. 

Mercedes300

Fair enough, Tannin, you make some good points here. However, the other factor that needs to be considered is that if you buy a Martin, and then fancy something else, The Martin will always have a good resale value, and will be easy to move on. The same argument holds true for Gibson and Fender electrics, despite some obscure manufacture releasing details of a Fender, or Gibson beater every month! All our guitar heroes continue to use Fender's or Gibsons (or Martin's!). and there must be a reason for this. Of course, if you were Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, or a reincarnated Jimi Hendrix, you could probably play anything, and still sound good, but that is an unlikely scenario for most of us. Anyway, most guitar gods still favour the  brands I have mentioned, despite the fact that they could have anything they fancied.

Lewy

Tannin said:

There are three or four old Martin models from the 1930s which have achieved iconic status, but nobody in their right mind actually copies them.

Yeah nobody wants those vintage Martin-patterned instruments any more.....

https://youtu.be/bkFo5n6Vcf4

Seems he's getting something from his Pre War Guitars vintage Martin replica that he can't get from his Matons....funny that....

TINMAN82

Lewy said:

Tannin said:

There are three or four old Martin models from the 1930s which have achieved iconic status, but nobody in their right mind actually copies them.

Yeah nobody wants those vintage Martin-patterned instruments any more.....

https://youtu.be/bkFo5n6Vcf4

Seems he's getting something from his Pre War Guitars vintage Martin replica that he can't get from his Matons....funny that....

In fairness he plays Maton 99% of the time and wouldn’t rely on one of these as a main touring guitar.

I had my Martin 00028ec in with a luthier recently for installation of a K&K trinity pro system, strap button and general check over. Thankfully he thought it was a good, structurally sound guitar.

I won’t name the luthier however he is award winning and Andertons acoustic demo guy Ben owns one of his guitars.

His opinion of Martin in general however is low. He reckons above a certain price point eg pushing £4K like my Clapton, they tend to spend a bit more time and get it right. He says he’s constantly receiving new D28s with high action requiring neck set to remedy it as the factory often messes that up. Apparently if you look at production figures from the factory there’s an exponential increase over the last 10 years, which is (in his opinion) linked to a downturn in quality control. 

Lewy

TINMAN82 said:

He says he’s constantly receiving new D28s with high action requiring neck set to remedy it as the factory often messes that up. Apparently if you look at production figures from the factory there’s an exponential increase over the last 10 years, which is (in his opinion) linked to a downturn in quality control.

Logic would say that as he isn’t going to see the ones that don’t need that, then regardless of his qualifications, his view represents base rate fallacy.

Lewy

TINMAN82 said:

Lewy said:

Tannin said:

There are three or four old Martin models from the 1930s which have achieved iconic status, but nobody in their right mind actually copies them.

Yeah nobody wants those vintage Martin-patterned instruments any more.....

https://youtu.be/bkFo5n6Vcf4

Seems he's getting something from his Pre War Guitars vintage Martin replica that he can't get from his Matons....funny that....

In fairness he plays Maton 99% of the time and wouldn’t rely on one of these as a main touring guitar.

Exactly, so it’s about use-case. If he wants an exquisite acoustic sound into a microphone for a listening audience, then a lightly braced Martin-style guitar made of the classic materials and the classic construction is what he wants. Plenty of people want that.

TINMAN82

Lewy said:

TINMAN82 said:

He says he’s constantly receiving new D28s with high action requiring neck set to remedy it as the factory often messes that up. Apparently if you look at production figures from the factory there’s an exponential increase over the last 10 years, which is (in his opinion) linked to a downturn in quality control.

Logic would say that as he isn’t going to see the ones that don’t need that, then regardless of his qualifications, his view represents base rate fallacy.

Definitely, major selection bias and very unscientific. 

However, there will be some truth in it no doubt, especially given the rapid rise in production numbers.

Likewise, plenty of people will persist with their guitar without realising there’s an “issue” or due to cognitive bias having spent a lot of money. I’ve seen this first hand as my dads 2018 D28 has almost no saddle left and negligible break angle in order to have a playable action. Impossible to lower further without a neck reset (and probably affecting tone)….but he’s happy with it!

Put it this way- I’d still be very careful when selecting a new D28.

Lewy

TINMAN82 said:

Lewy said:

TINMAN82 said:

He says he’s constantly receiving new D28s with high action requiring neck set to remedy it as the factory often messes that up. Apparently if you look at production figures from the factory there’s an exponential increase over the last 10 years, which is (in his opinion) linked to a downturn in quality control.

Logic would say that as he isn’t going to see the ones that don’t need that, then regardless of his qualifications, his view represents base rate fallacy.

Definitely, major selection bias and very unscientific. 

However, there will be some truth in it no doubt, especially given the rapid rise in production numbers.

Likewise, plenty of people will persist with their guitar without realising there’s an “issue” or due to cognitive bias having spent a lot of money. I’ve seen this first hand as my dads 2018 D28 has almost no saddle left and negligible break angle in order to have a playable action. Impossible to lower further without a neck reset (and probably affecting tone)….but he’s happy with it!

Put it this way- I’d still be very careful when selecting a new D28.

Yes, this is true. I've seen this on the Collings forum of old where someone who's guitar definitely needed a neck reset was told "people generally don't buy a Collings to have a low action".

And you can definitely find tales of woe about Martins needing early-in-life neck resets, and there were some binding issues on the early Authentics too. But I reckon if you spent a day calling every repairer and trawling every forum, you'd maybe amass 50-100 such tales. Compared to production numbers, I doubt it's statistically significant. Still, I'd be very pissed off if it was my Martin that needed an early reset.

BigPaulie

I've heard that if your Martin needs an early reset, and sometimes not so early (20 years plus), you can have it done under warranty if you're the original owner and play hardball with the warranty team.

That would give me some confidence to buy a new Martin.

TINMAN82

BigPaulie said:

I've heard that if your Martin needs an early reset, and sometimes not so early (20 years plus), you can have it done under warranty if you're the original owner and play hardball with the warranty team.

That would give me some confidence to buy a new Martin.

I gather this is useful if you live in the USA, not so much overseas. The luthier mentioned above previously worked at the authorised Martin repair centre in London. He said UK warranty requests were very frequently rejected on the basis that a guitar was still “within factory spec” or not kept at precisely 45% humidity etc.

Lewy

TINMAN82 said:

BigPaulie said:

I've heard that if your Martin needs an early reset, and sometimes not so early (20 years plus), you can have it done under warranty if you're the original owner and play hardball with the warranty team.

That would give me some confidence to buy a new Martin.

I gather this is useful if you live in the USA, not so much overseas. The luthier mentioned above previously worked at the authorised Martin repair centre in London. He said UK warranty requests were very frequently rejected on the basis that a guitar was still “within factory spec” or not kept at precisely 45% humidity etc.

Dave King's been the only UK authorised Martin service centre for about 15 years. So actually that's quite a good quantitative measure. Warranty repairs on all the Martins sold in the UK keeps one luthier busy for some, but not all, of their time.

Mellish

Martin's purchased in the UK have a one year warranty. The care manual says 45-55% humidity so within that won't void the warranty  

Lewy

When it comes to warranties and related service, I have to shout out to Collings - those guys really look after you if you’re the original owner regardless of whether you’re In the US or not.  They even went halves with me on a refret once (not even covered under the warranty).