Between neck and middle position on strat quiet..

KevS

Something has to be out of phase I imagine,but all white wires go to switch,all black wires are grounded on the volume pot..
The middle to bridge position is fine..

Just got the Oil City Stone Tone pickups..

Nightmare soldering job..
Cleaning pot surface ,sanding,,cleaning,,scratching,,cleaning...Nothing could get the earth to the trem claw  and black to the jack plug to solder to the pots..
I tried the usual method of trying to build up some solder first etc..
I was at it for hours repetitively,,I was trying to be really neat as well..
My dodgy back is locking up...Feck CTS...
I just wasn't cut out for soldering,but changing pickups would cost me a fortune...

I use a gas iron as it gets nice and hot and keep it clean..
I can't really solder with an electric one..I a too clumsy..

Anyway,,it may bay a few days before I go in there..
I am a bit scunnered after all that work..Seriously..
The earth wires seemed on there nice and strong..
I checked everything through an amp before I put it all back together
 

ICBM

If both pickups work fine by themselves but the combination is quiet then it sounds like the neck pickup is out of phase. Either the magnets have been accidentally magnetised the wrong way round or the coil connections are reversed. It can happen, especially if they're meant to be a RWRP set. (Are they?)

If the neck pickup alone is a bit quiet as well - and turning the tone control down kills most of the volume - then it's most likely a bad ground connection.

Funkfingers

What type of selector switch does the guitar have? Different things can go physically wrong with each type of switch.

On some old Japanese-made switches, the common terminal is not necessarily in the same place as the CRL type illustrated in the majority of schematic circuit diagrams.

Is the control cavity screened with metal foil? With some selector switches, it is possible that the foil touches one of the switch contacts, causing a short.

Photographs of your wiring would aid remote diagnosis.

KevS

ICBM said:

If both pickups work fine by themselves but the combination is quiet then it sounds like the neck pickup is out of phase. Either the magnets have been accidentally magnetised the wrong way round or the coil connections are reversed. It can happen, especially if they're meant to be a RWRP set. (Are they?)

If the neck pickup alone is a bit quiet as well - and turning the tone control down kills most of the volume - then it's most likely a bad ground connection.

OK....The Neck Pickup is as loud as the others,the volume doesn't drop with the Tone Control..
There isn't  any info on that stuff RWRP etc I don't think...
As I cut the wires to length..I hope the pickups haven't been labelled/written on wrongly..

Any tops when the solder just won't adhere to the pot...?


.

https://www.oilcitypickups.co.uk/product-page/stonetone

KevS

Funkfingers said:

What type of selector switch does the guitar have? Different things can go physically wrong with each type of switch.

On some old Japanese-made switches, the common terminal is not necessarily in the same place as the CRL type illustrated in the majority of schematic circuit diagrams.

Is the control cavity screened with metal foil? With some selector switches, it is possible that the foil touches one of the switch contacts, causing a short.

Photographs of your wiring would aid remote diagnosis.

It is a new OAK Grigsby Switch..

The cavity isn't screened with metal foil..

I have no way of putting up photos..

BillDL

KevS said:

I am a bit scunnered after all that work..Seriously..

Now there's a good old fashioned Scottish word that you don't hear being used very much these days.  It's so expressive, especially when you add some real venom to your voice  

If you are ever going to solder anything again I can offer a suggestion that usually makes it easier to solder to the back of pots and to the trem claw.  A lot of solder these days already contains Rosin Flux that helps it flow and stick, but if you buy a small tub of Rosin Soldering Flux paste it will help you immensely.

Make certain you are in a very well ventilated area, preferably with a small fan blowing gently.  You don't want to breath in soldering smoke and fumes, and flux creates a bit more smoke.  It can also splutter a bit and spit little drops of flux and solder, so don't solder on top of something that you don't want to mark or that is flammable.

• Wipe the back of the pot or the metal part with a solvent like meths.
• Rub it with coarse sandpaper where you are going to solder.
• Smear a thin layer of flux on the area you are going to solder.
• Apply the tip of the iron to the part where you are going to solder.
• Start pushing the soldering wire in against the part where the tip is touching the part.
• Lift off when a small shallow blob forms.  The flux makes this happen much more easily and the solder adheres more easily.
• Dip the ends of the wires into the flux and then "tin" them by wiping along them with the tip of the iron coated with solder.  The solder will wick into the twisted wire ends much quicker and better because of the flux.
• You can usually now press onto your blob of solder with the iron, push the wire into/onto the blob of solder as it melts, hold the wire still, and lift the iron.

Reference Videos:

Flux Explained.

Using Flux.

How to solder to pots.

Alternative to soldering to the back of pots.

The oldest videos from Six String Supplies are quite useful tutorials.

KevS

BillDL said:

KevS said:

I am a bit scunnered after all that work..Seriously..

Now there's a good old fashioned Scottish word that you don't hear being used very much these days.  It's so expressive, especially when you add some real venom to your voice  

If you are ever going to solder anything again I can offer a suggestion that usually makes it easier to solder to the back of pots and to the trem claw.  A lot of solder these days already contains Rosin Flux that helps it flow and stick, but if you buy a small tub of Rosin Soldering Flux paste it will help you immensely.

Make certain you are in a very well ventilated area, preferably with a small fan blowing gently.  You don't want to breath in soldering smoke and fumes, and flux creates a bit more smoke.  It can also splutter a bit and spit little drops of flux and solder, so don't solder on top of something that you don't want to mark or that is flammable.

• Wipe the back of the pot or the metal part with a solvent like meths.
• Rub it with coarse sandpaper where you are going to solder.
• Smear a thin layer of flux on the area you are going to solder.
• Apply the tip of the iron to the part where you are going to solder.
• Start pushing the soldering wire in against the part where the tip is touching the part.
• Lift off when a small shallow blob forms.  The flux makes this happen much more easily and the solder adheres more easily.
• Dip the ends of the wires into the flux and then "tin" them by wiping along them with the tip of the iron coated with solder.  The solder will wick into the twisted wire ends much quicker and better because of the flux.
• You can usually now press onto your blob of solder with the iron, push the wire into/onto the blob of solder as it melts, hold the wire still, and lift the iron.

Reference Videos:

Flux Explained.

Using Flux.

How to solder to pots.

Alternative to soldering to the back of pots.

The oldest videos from Six String Supplies are quite useful tutorials.

Thank you for this..

I have both lighter fluid and isopropyl in the house just now..
I was using lighter fluid for cleaning..
I think that is OK..Maybe not..

I had another whole loom with Fender Delta Tone era pickups..
These ones are from 2007...
Even if just to temporarily use till I find out what is going on with the Oil City pickups...
The thing was,,the pots were really easy to solder the earth wires to the back of and the went on there really easy..

The flux seems to be the thing though...
I know the other tricks...

I quite liked these pickups in another Strat,but in the American Series they didn't sound so good..
This one is an American Performer,,in Olympic Dairies White..

I have a Multimeter,,so can try and find out how to test for polarity and wind..
If that's what you use...

Funkfingers

KevS said:

Funkfingers said:

What type of selector switch does the guitar have? Different things can go physically wrong with each type of switch.

It is a new OAK Grigsby Switch.

How many contacts? Eight, twelve or twenty four?

Also, do not assume that a new component is in good working order simply because it is new.

KevS said:

ICBM said:

RWRP.

There isn't any info on that stuff RWRP etc I don't think. I hope the pickups haven't been labelled/written on wrongly.

Two quick ways to tell.
1) The output conductors of an RPRW centre pickup will be "the wrong way around" compared to the neck and bridge ones.

2) The tops of the magnets of the centre pickup will attract those of the other two. The neck and bridge will repel one another.

•

Even if the pickup trio is intended to be centre RPRW, installing them in the wrong order should not create phase issues. Instead, one parallel pair will be hum-cancelling whilst the other will not.

A manufacturing defect such as "reverse wind, same magnetic polarity" would result in a thin, wiry sound but it would affect selector switch positions 2 and 4 equally.

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

A manufacturing defect such as "reverse wind, same magnetic polarity" would result in a thin, wiry sound but it would affect selector switch positions 2 and 4 equally.

Not if it's the neck pickup which is wrong. ie if the neck and middle pickups have been accidentally swapped during installation...

If you have any other spare single-coil pickup, you can check the magnetic polarity without taking the pickups out of the guitar - just hold it over each of the pickups and check for attract or repel.

Sporky

When you say "quiet", is it just lower level, or is it also very thin and trebbly? 

Funkfingers

ICBM said:.

Not if it's the neck pickup which is wrong. ie if the neck and middle pickups have been accidentally swapped during installation.

I have two Stratocasters on which I have the neck and middle single coil pickups deliberately installed in the wrong positions so as to have the correct relationship with the bridge position pickup. e.g. Seymour Duncan Twangbanger, Five-Two neck, Five-Two centre RPRW. The neck + centre combination works perfectly, thank you.

I concur that a weakly grounded pickup would sound thin both by itself and when paired with a second similar pickup. Hence, my assertion that the issue lies elsewhere in the circuit.

STUCK RECORD TIME
I once got a cracking deal on a Fender Baja Telecaster because its bridge position pickup was believed to be defective by the seller. The defect only occurred in one position on the selector switch. Hence, the pickup could not be faulty.

Turned out that the tiny sprung leaf contacts on the selector switch had been bent out of shape such that they no longer pressed firmly on the wiper/collector "blade". After some judicious twisting with narrow-nosed tweezers, the switch was restored to full health.

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

I have two Stratocasters on which I have the neck and middle single coil pickups deliberately installed in the wrong positions so as to have the correct relationship with the bridge position pickup. e.g. Seymour Duncan Twangbanger, Five-Two neck, Five-Two centre RPRW. The neck + centre combination works perfectly, thank you.

I meant if the middle pickup was the incorrect polarity or connection *and* it's been swapped with the neck pickup - that would give what KevS has, out of phase in the neck/middle position only.

There's not a lot else which will explain it given a standard Strat switch and both pickups working correctly by themselves.

Funkfingers

It is difficult to comment further without sight of the innards of the OP's guitar.

I'm out.

KevS

Sporky...

The sound is thin and metallic..Lower output and has no boldness,,yes trebly..

OK Funkfingers....This is interesting,,The switch..
First time I bolted everything together..The switch was stuck when I tried to move it through the positions to test the pickups..
I opened everything up and found an extra screw had been put in with it and it was trapped in the switch....
You know the screws that fit the switch to the scratchplate..
I had to prod around a bit to get it out..
Now that would likely cause a problem with the switch...
I'm not saying it is that,,but the incident with the screw did happen..
I pushed a bit harder first time the switch didn't move,but it was stuck..
Not 100 % sure,,but it stuck around the middle position..

The switch has 8 terminals by the way..

ICBM....The writing on the grey I take it fibreboard bobbins is B M N..
I take it to mean Bridge,,Middle and Neck...
Everything was installed that way,,now on a spare scratchplate installed the same way...
it keeps all the loom together..
On the bridge pickup the line that make the letter B may have been an M originally..
Imagine an M on it's side and then a line down the middle to form a B with back tails...
That is the B written on the pickup..

I imagine Ash makes his pickups in batches..
Could I have been given 2 middle pickups with one labelled neck..?

I can check this with another single coil pickup for polarity..
Another new skill picked up..

The upside of this is that I had a spare Scratchplate with some 2007 American Series pickups..
These were reduced down to a master volume and tone like I had done with the Stone Tones..

I got up very late today,,noisy neighbours..
First thing I did was set the height of the American Series pickups..

Jumpin Jehosophats....They are the perfect Match..
My White Strat is now my best sounding..
Those Pickups are not moving from that guitar..

They were originally in the Legendary Boat anchor Strat which now has a lighter body..
They sounded weak puny and thin in there..
No matter how many times I adjusted them..

In the White Strat they have just the right amount of everything..
Volume,,Presence,,Fatness...
They have some cut,,but are way more sumptuous and complex than the Fender Texas Specials.. 
There just seems to be more to texture and body to the actual note.
You can do hammers and pulls all over the place and the notes come out fat and bold..
On the Texas Specials it is like you get the percussive strike of the note,,but not all the body of the note...
Both are around the same volume..
the American series pickups seem to give out more information

The Bridge Pickup has 2 large headed screws going into the bottom of the pickup..
these aren't on the neck and middle..
the bridge pickup is a perfect match for the other two..
I often find myself wanting to replace something different in the bridge...
Not here..

Yet these pickups sounded Guff in the 2007 American Series Strat..
So things going wrong led me to the perfect  pickup / guitar pairing...

I am thinking of a way of using 2 of the Stone Tones and taking 2 Texas Specials out of another Strat..
The soldering for that may be too much for me though..
500 K Pots and resistors etc...Yikes..
I bugged Ash in a nice way about my knackered Pearly Gates,but he said he was really busy..

What I want to do and my options is another post altogether..

What I do know is those American Series Pickups are staying where they are..

Thank you to every single one of you for your help..
And any help in the past...

Dave_Mc

BillDL said:

KevS said:

I am a bit scunnered after all that work..Seriously..

Now there's a good old fashioned Scottish word that you don't hear being used very much these days.  It's so expressive, especially when you add some real venom to your voice  

We use that here (Northern Ireland) too! It may well be from Ulster Scots, though.

I'd be inclined to listen to @ICBM - he's correctly diagnosed my problems before several times, without a photo, when I was completely stumped- I can usually (through a lot of practice with mistakes!) diagnose the obvious stuff, like out of phase etc.

KevS

OK...pickup repelled by bridge and neck..Attracted by middle..
Good trick that..

So that leaves the switch I guess..
Maybe time to order a new one..
Don't know if it would be easy to fix the switch,,probably simpler to buy a new one..

Dave Mc

I think Funkfingers totally means well by the way and knows way more than I do about guitars...

I also until the switch was mentioned didn't even consider that as an option..
That incident with the screw could have indeed caused the fault though..

I totally know ICBM knows what he is talking about..
He is one of the very few people who I have used for repair back in the day when he worked in Edinburgh.
Guitars,Amps and Pedals...
He always done the job properly and fully..
He is honest and principled..
No half done jobs,,really good soldering etc..
This was back in the 1990s mostly..
I also remember him having problems with allergies to some metals and circuit boards...
The only other guy in Edinburgh I trust now is Chris McIntyre as far as the standard of work goes,,
He is a builder and really good at repair..

There were other better known repair guys in Edinburgh,but when it came to their work it was nowhere near as good as ICBM..
I'm not being flattering by the way..I am a grumpy bastard and hand work back all the time..
I have been banned by a shop for taking guitars back..
Yes they were Gibsons..They were determined to keep my money.. 
There were well known repairmen in Edinburgh that didn't or couldn't level frets or solder properly..
I never had to hand anything back,,ever with ICBM...

ICBM

KevS said:

OK...pickup repelled by bridge and neck..Attracted by middle..
Good trick that..

So that leaves the switch I guess.

No, it almost certainly means the neck pickup is wired out of phase. The pickups are in the correct order since the middle is the opposite polarity. (ie a RWRP set.)

If you have a look on the baseplates you will most likely find that the wires are connected the opposite way round to the bridge pickup and the same way round as the middle pickup - it should be the same as the bridge and the opposite of the middle.

If it was me I would carefully unsolder the wires at the pickup eyelets and swap them there, but since there is a risk of damaging the coil wire if you do, it's probably better to do it at the switch and volume pot (even though that's going to be a pain).

Funkfingers

KevS said:

I think Funkfingers totally means well.

Damned by faint praise.

The four hundred miles to Edinburgh is beyond the range of my telepathy and/or superhero x-ray vision. For this, I humbly apologise. 

Meanwhile, I am surprised that Oil City Pickups tapped rod magnets into the fibreboard plates the wrong way up (or charged them themselves in reverse). If this is the case, there ought to be further reports of similar problems from other purchasers of the limited edition anniversary Stone Tone sets.

KevS

ICBM said:

KevS said:

OK...pickup repelled by bridge and neck..Attracted by middle..
Good trick that..

So that leaves the switch I guess.

No, it almost certainly means the neck pickup is wired out of phase. The pickups are in the correct order since the middle is the opposite polarity. (ie a RWRP set.)

If you have a look on the baseplates you will most likely find that the wires are connected the opposite way round to the bridge pickup and the same way round as the middle pickup - it should be the same as the bridge and the opposite of the middle.

If it was me I would carefully unsolder the wires at the pickup eyelets and swap them there, but since there is a risk of damaging the coil wire if you do, it's probably better to do it at the switch and volume pot (even though that's going to be a pain).

OK,,that bit was easy..Wires Swapped at switch and pot...

You were spot on about the wires..

I just hope the switch is ok after my little incident with that..

I am going to transfer that lot to a different scratch plate,,
Then solder it  all into the guitar with the fecked Pearly Gates Scratchplate..
Take that Scratchplate off first of course..If you are confused 3 scratchplates are involved..
To save my  old sore back I will do it as 2 different jobs,,or even 3...

Part one is done..

I don't know if I should order some flux and wait.
Or trust scuffing up the surface and soldering to that.
It really seems to depend on what mood the Ancient Gods are in when it comes to soldering with me...
Or maybe it is that I should use flux for the back of pots...
Sterculius may be angry at me saying that though..

KevS

Funkfingers said:

KevS said:

I think Funkfingers totally means well.

Damned by faint praise.

The four hundred miles to Edinburgh is beyond the range of my telepathy and/or superhero x-ray vision. For this, I humbly apologise. 

Meanwhile, I am surprised that Oil City Pickups tapped rod magnets into the fibreboard plates the wrong way up (or charged them themselves in reverse). If this is the case, there ought to be further reports of similar problems from other purchasers of the limited edition anniversary Stone Tone sets.

Ah!! Now I know why I mess up Jobs,,it is your Telepathic Mind Control doing it.
I just hope you can't remote view what a slob I really am..

KevS

All is working perfectly..
Not so sure I like the pickups though..
They lack shimmer spank and presence for me.

These lack sizzle..
I must say,,I like the Fender 2007 American Series pickups more..
They seem about the same output as Texas Specials..
They have more mids and are erm quite sumptuous.
They still have sizzle though...
Although that is in a particular Strat..

The Stonetones are alnico 5,but to me have an alnico 2 type thing going on..
The Seymour Duncan Alnico 2 Strat Pickups aren't my thing..

Would 500k pots maybe be the answer..
Or would that take my head off with the treble..?
Would the mids disappear completely.?