Issues with custom guitar - advise please!

Jtaylor

I am after some advice....

I ordered a custom guitar from Frank Brothers guitar company last November and it arrived this week. The guitar plays well and sounds great but it has some flaws in the finish, namely a run / drip in the lacquer and some black specks that are under the finish. I am rather unhappy with the flaws, especially considering the price of the guitar, please see photos below: 

https://imgur.com/kbQsqCy
https://imgur.com/u3CvjG7

The first thing I did was reach out to Frank Brothers and ask if there was anything they could do or suggest so that they had an opportunity to help and hopefully fix the issues. There response wasn't particularly helpful and I am unsure how best to proceed though. Please see their response below: 

I'm so sorry to hear that you're disappointed with those nonuniformities in the finish. Thank you for bringing them to our attention - we are always seeking to improve our craft, so we really appreciate your feedback. In the art of guitar making every instrument has its own unique indications of being a handcrafted object. We always strive to exceed expectations, and I hope we have done that in other aspects.

The guitar itself plays and sounds great as I mentioned above and part of me thinks I should just try and get over the finish flaws. The problem I have is that the run / drip really bothers me and I can't help but think that an expensive guitar should't have a run in the finish, regardless of whether it is handmade or not. So thought I'd ask some of you guys how you would respond / what you would do. 

Any thoughts or opinions are very welcome. 

grungebob

Well it’s not nonuniformities it’s a sloppy finish job. Runs and dust under the finish isn’t tolerated on a £400 squier jag someone posted earlier so Shouldn’t be tolerated on a guitar of this price bracket. 

They fobbed you off with sales speak because they don’t want to address the issue. 

Id push the issue further if it does indeed bother you. 

Funkfingers

Check Canadian distance selling regulations. Find out how the time period within which you have the right to return the goods and claim a refund.

Your story does remind me of another North American maker* who thought that European customers were too far away to exert their rights and, hence, could be treated like shit.

* Carvin/Kiesel. Any European customer telephoning to register a complaint got patched through to the boss. He'd call that customer an asshole and threaten litigation for daring to complain.

Jtaylor

Thanks for the responses guys, glad it isn't just me that thinks the finish is unacceptable. Excuse my inexperience @Funkfingers, how do I find out what the Canadian distance selling regulations are? I've tried googling it but couldn't seem the right information anywhere 

Tannin

Those flaws are on no consequence from a practical point of view. However they are simply not acceptable on a guitar in this price range. Way out of court. 

Frank Brothers are going to get a very bad name unless they address this. 

I would also be having a chat to your credit card company.

guitars4you

I think that was is acceptable or not acceptable is not going to help you with any LDSR in this instance - I assume few/any of us will have much experience with such an issue with a Canadian purchase - I think your only course of action will be with your credit card company - And/or any compensation/good will from Frank Bros

Lewy

‘In the art of guitar making every instrument has its own unique indications of being a handcrafted object.’

The dismissive and patronising tone of that response has me incandescent on your behalf. It’s amazing how many guitar builders manage to avoid such unique indications…

Whitecat

In Canada there are some federal laws on the subject but specific consumer remedies are a provincially devolved thing so you’ll want to be looking up “consumer rights Ontario” for more specific info on what you can do. 

richardhomer

guitars4you said:

I think that was is acceptable or not acceptable is not going to help you with any LDSR in this instance - I assume few/any of us will have much experience with such an issue with a Canadian purchase - I think your only course of action will be with your credit card company - And/or any compensation/good will from Frank Bros

It has to be a reasonable assumption that Frank Brothers would want to avoid the reputational damage of their poor workmanship being seen on various forums. I have to say, I think their response is piss-poor; “thanks for pointing out a flaw that anyone with eyes could see”.

Assuming you’re happy with the instrument, perhaps the best fix would be for them to meet the cost of getting the issues rectified by someone competent in the UK?

ICBM

richardhomer said:

It has to be a reasonable assumption that Frank Brothers would want to avoid the reputational damage of their poor workmanship been seen in various forums. I have to say, I think their response is piss-poor; “thanks for pointing out a flaw that anyone with eyes could see”.

Assuming you’re happy with the instrument, perhaps the best fix would be for them to meet the cost of getting the issues rectified by someone competent in the UK?

I would do this. Unless they're willing to either fully refund you including for the cost of return shipping, or take it back, fix it and send it to you again covering the shipping (and potential customs) costs both ways - which I have to say sounds unlikely - then you're probably best to see if you can get them to pay for the remedial work. The lacquer run looks like it should sand and buff out, and the dirt under the finish should be possible to pick out and drop-fill - and at worst, if you can't do that, is at least in a place where you won't really see it.

Even if you have to cut your losses and pay for the work yourself it doesn't look like it will be expensive, and you can then make things uncomfortable for them on social media if you have to.

I assume what looks like a deep scratch on the inside of the cutaway is actually a bit of wood figuring too! (Medullary ray.)

Offset

ICBM said:

I assume what looks like a deep scratch on the inside of the cutaway is actually a bit of wood figuring too! (Medullary ray.)

I was about to ask precisely the same thing.

Offset

richardhomer said:

It has to be a reasonable assumption that Frank Brothers would want to avoid the reputational damage of their poor workmanship being seen on various forums. 

I have to say that the reputational damage has already been done.  Either their QC is so poor that it let obvious flaws like these pass unnoticed, or - worse - they were noticed and simply ignored.  Pretty eye-popping at this price point.

Now it's just a case of damage limitation.  A proper apology and covering the costs of rectifying the defects here in the UK are in order at the very least.

Winny_Pooh

This is poor. I can't see a PRS, Suhr or Musicman at half the cost leaving the factory like this. You have cause to be unhappy but the question is now how to resolve it with them after their inappropriate response.

IMO the ideal option would be to have a uk finisher touch it up (I assume nitro) at their cost or agree a discount. 

If you bought anything from a big box shifter like Thomann a partial refund is almost considered standard practice.

darthed1981

There is no doubt at all - at top end prices you expect top end QC.

If that was in a review of a HB everyone would be like "well that's what you get with an HB you don't get on my super-custom expensive thing haw haw haw"

I dunno what it cost but I'd expect them to take it back and fix it.

CavemanGrogg

Jtaylor said:

I am after some advice....

I ordered a custom guitar from Frank Brothers guitar company last November and it arrived this week. The guitar plays well and sounds great but it has some flaws in the finish, namely a run / drip in the lacquer and some black specks that are under the finish. I am rather unhappy with the flaws, especially considering the price of the guitar, please see photos below: 

https://imgur.com/kbQsqCy
https://imgur.com/u3CvjG7

The first thing I did was reach out to Frank Brothers and ask if there was anything they could do or suggest so that they had an opportunity to help and hopefully fix the issues. There response wasn't particularly helpful and I am unsure how best to proceed though. Please see their response below: 

I'm so sorry to hear that you're disappointed with those nonuniformities in the finish. Thank you for bringing them to our attention - we are always seeking to improve our craft, so we really appreciate your feedback. In the art of guitar making every instrument has its own unique indications of being a handcrafted object. We always strive to exceed expectations, and I hope we have done that in other aspects.

The guitar itself plays and sounds great as I mentioned above and part of me thinks I should just try and get over the finish flaws. The problem I have is that the run / drip really bothers me and I can't help but think that an expensive guitar should't have a run in the finish, regardless of whether it is handmade or not. So thought I'd ask some of you guys how you would respond / what you would do. 

Any thoughts or opinions are very welcome. 

I'm assuming you are UK based, in which case Canada consumer laws can go do one, to do business or sell a product in the UK you must abide by UK laws, you don't seee Johnson & Johnson advitising their immunosuppressant drugs on the TV here like you do in America, it is not only by far J&J's biggest profit maker, but also pretty much the  medical standard for immunosuppressants, but because it is against UK law, just like why companies like Smith and Western, Colt, Tauros don't spend a penny on advertising in the UK, not all of their products are againsts our laws, but what these companies are most famous for is - for example how many people here know that S&W and Uzi to name but two of many gun manufacturers also make and legally sell extremely good quality knives in the UK, yet alone that these companies make them and in some cases safes, house alarms and other home security systems like CCTV and flood lighting. 

Having been in your situation more times than I care to admit, the consumer laws of the country the guitar was sold to apply, not where the thing was made - when you TV breaks while under warranty is it Chinese consumer laws you follow and expect to follow or the country that you bought the TV in consumers laws?, and given the cost, and the tone of the emailed response you recieved, I'd also advise getting your bank, or credit card company involved as soon as possible, at the very least let them know you are extremely unhappy with the guitar, believe the issues to be flaws and defects - indeed there's not a guitar retailer in the UK who would not expect what you described to be sent back to them, even if it was a shitty Squier, and that you are trying to reach a resolution with the builder, I'd also enquire about the chances of a charge back - these are time limited so if you can do a charge back, but paid in installments, you might be albe to get only get a few of your installment payments returned by the bank - this happened to me with a well respected builder from The Gear Page.

richardhomer said:

guitars4you said:

I think that was is acceptable or not acceptable is not going to help you with any LDSR in this instance - I assume few/any of us will have much experience with such an issue with a Canadian purchase - I think your only course of action will be with your credit card company - And/or any compensation/good will from Frank Bros

It has to be a reasonable assumption that Frank Brothers would want to avoid the reputational damage of their poor workmanship being seen on various forums. I have to say, I think their response is piss-poor; “thanks for pointing out a flaw that anyone with eyes could see”.

Assuming you’re happy with the instrument, perhaps the best fix would be for them to meet the cost of getting the issues rectified by someone competent in the UK?

I honestly wouldn't expect them to give two shits about what UK players and the UK market think of them as a company, or their quality.  How long has the company been building guitars for?, how many do you honestly think they sell in the Europe, nevermind just the UK every year, single digits, double digits?

prowla

Jtaylor said:

I'm so sorry to hear that you're disappointed with those nonuniformities in the finish. Thank you for bringing them to our attention - we are always seeking to improve our craft, so we really appreciate your feedback. In the art of guitar making every instrument has its own unique indications of being a handcrafted object. We always strive to exceed expectations, and I hope we have done that in other aspects.

Well, that' a non-apology isn't it?

It looks like "so sorry" in Frank Brothers speak means so sod-off!

prlgmnr

CavemanGrogg said:

I honestly wouldn't expect them to give two shits about what UK players and the UK market think of them as a company, or their quality. 

If only humanity would get round to inventing some sort of means by which one could instantly get information out to a world wide audience.

CavemanGrogg

prlgmnr said:

CavemanGrogg said:

I honestly wouldn't expect them to give two shits about what UK players and the UK market think of them as a company, or their quality. 

If only humanity would get round to inventing some sort of means by which one could instantly get information out to a world wide audience.

And what good would that do when it's obvious from their website that they really don't care about getting or attracting business from outside their native market, you'll get more from pissing into the wind.

fretmeister

CavemanGrogg said:

Jtaylor said:

I am after some advice....

I ordered a custom guitar from Frank Brothers guitar company last November and it arrived this week. The guitar plays well and sounds great but it has some flaws in the finish, namely a run / drip in the lacquer and some black specks that are under the finish. I am rather unhappy with the flaws, especially considering the price of the guitar, please see photos below: 

https://imgur.com/kbQsqCy
https://imgur.com/u3CvjG7

The first thing I did was reach out to Frank Brothers and ask if there was anything they could do or suggest so that they had an opportunity to help and hopefully fix the issues. There response wasn't particularly helpful and I am unsure how best to proceed though. Please see their response below: 

I'm so sorry to hear that you're disappointed with those nonuniformities in the finish. Thank you for bringing them to our attention - we are always seeking to improve our craft, so we really appreciate your feedback. In the art of guitar making every instrument has its own unique indications of being a handcrafted object. We always strive to exceed expectations, and I hope we have done that in other aspects.

The guitar itself plays and sounds great as I mentioned above and part of me thinks I should just try and get over the finish flaws. The problem I have is that the run / drip really bothers me and I can't help but think that an expensive guitar should't have a run in the finish, regardless of whether it is handmade or not. So thought I'd ask some of you guys how you would respond / what you would do. 

Any thoughts or opinions are very welcome. 

I'm assuming you are UK based, in which case Canada consumer laws can go do one, to do business or sell a product in the UK you must abide by UK laws, you don't seee Johnson & Johnson advitising their immunosuppressant drugs on the TV here like you do in America, it is not only by far J&J's biggest profit maker, but also pretty much the  medical standard for immunosuppressants, but because it is against UK law, just like why companies like Smith and Western, Colt, Tauros don't spend a penny on advertising in the UK, not all of their products are againsts our laws, but what these companies are most famous for is - for example how many people here know that S&W and Uzi to name but two of many gun manufacturers also make and legally sell extremely good quality knives in the UK, yet alone that these companies make them and in some cases safes, house alarms and other home security systems like CCTV and flood lighting. 

Having been in your situation more times than I care to admit, the consumer laws of the country the guitar was sold to apply, not where the thing was made - when you TV breaks while under warranty is it Chinese consumer laws you follow and expect to follow or the country that you bought the TV in consumers laws?, and given the cost, and the tone of the emailed response you recieved, I'd also advise getting your bank, or credit card company involved as soon as possible, at the very least let them know you are extremely unhappy with the guitar, believe the issues to be flaws and defects - indeed there's not a guitar retailer in the UK who would not expect what you described to be sent back to them, even if it was a shitty Squier, and that you are trying to reach a resolution with the builder, I'd also enquire about the chances of a charge back - these are time limited so if you can do a charge back, but paid in installments, you might be albe to get only get a few of your installment payments returned by the bank - this happened to me with a well respected builder from The Gear Page.

This just isn't true.

Jurisdictional conflicts are often the first part of any contract case that involves an international border.

Most of the time for a custom order the contract for sale will state the laws that apply within the text. And it's never outside of the sellers location. Why on earth would they worry about complying with every law in other countries? Simply - they won't.

Even in UK to UK contracts like for your credit card it will state what jurisdiction the parties are agreeing to use for any dispute resolution. And once the order has been made the terms have been accepted. The terms are there in case you use your UK card in the USA and realise you might get punitive damages there... but you already agreed that England & Wales law applies when you got the card in the first place.

So no - you can't rock up in Canada and rely on the UK Sales of Goods Act, and if you try to sue in the UK (if the Canadian company even has any UK assets to make it worth a go) the court (after you've spend 3 days of lawyers fees arguing about it) will likely say the item is made in Canada, sold in Canada, then shipped elsewhere so Canadian law applies and the claimant should sue in Canada.

The Unfair Contract Terms and Conditions Act doesn't apply for this either.


The Chinese made TV is a red herring. It might be made in China, but it's sold in Currys / Tesco / whereever which is a UK company. It's not in the same ballpark, it's not even the same sport.

Gizmo

Not acceptable QC (none of my HB’s have had such poor finishing!) and not acceptable as a reply to your concerns about the issues.

 

Id send them a reply stating that you’re going to be making a YT video to let other buyers know about the “nonuniformities” in the quality of their work.

 

Also contact your payment provider and let them know that the quality of the item you ordered isn’t up to the standard you expect and that the seller is not being co-operative in resolving the matter to your satisfaction.

Once the threat of a chargeback hits their inbox I’m pretty sure their attitude will change

 

Good luck in getting this resolved

Blaendulais

You know what. It plays and sounds great.  I'd be running with that.