Issues with custom guitar - advise please!

Neil

It's a shame as the OP says the guitar plays really well that he should have to chase down the company over cosmetic defects.

Surely any small makers worth their salt would have gone over it, noted the defects and easily rectified them before shipping?

They obviously don't care too much. 

CavemanGrogg

fretmeister said:

This just isn't true.

Jurisdictional conflicts are often the first part of any contract case that involves an international border.

Most of the time for a custom order the contract for sale will state the laws that apply within the text. And it's never outside of the sellers location. Why on earth would they worry about complying with every law in other countries? Simply - they won't.

Even in UK to UK contracts like for your credit card it will state what jurisdiction the parties are agreeing to use for any dispute resolution. And once the order has been made the terms have been accepted. The terms are there in case you use your UK card in the USA and realise you might get punitive damages there... but you already agreed that England & Wales law applies when you got the card in the first place.

So no - you can't rock up in Canada and rely on the UK Sales of Goods Act, and if you try to sue in the UK (if the Canadian company even has any UK assets to make it worth a go) the court (after you've spend 3 days of lawyers fees arguing about it) will likely say the item is made in Canada, sold in Canada, then shipped elsewhere so Canadian law applies and the claimant should sue in Canada.

The Unfair Contract Terms and Conditions Act doesn't apply for this either.


The Chinese made TV is a red herring. It might be made in China, but it's sold in Currys / Tesco / whereever which is a UK company. It's not in the same ballpark, it's not even the same sport.

Oh yes it is, you want to sell  toys in the UK, by UK laws they must meet UK standards for everything from materials used, paints, chemicals, size of pieces - chocking harzards and shit, right down to the carbon footprint - the amount of pollution, and the treatment of the work force.  The same goes for food, notice we don't see chlorinated chicken on the selves of UK supermarkets, and much to America's disapointment  is against UK laws to both import for personal use, or to  sell for profit.  Supply and logistics is what used to do for a living, specifically finding suppliers in Asia for a Scotland based company, ensuring that they not only met the company's requirements, but also the legal requirements, and getting those products from Asia to  Scotland. 

And he can take this to court and would win, simply on the grounds that Frank Brothers are probably not going to bother to hire a UK lawyer yet alone turn up for the case, should he dedcide to take them to court  Then there is the whole warranty provided by the means of purchase, different depending on if you paid via credit card or debit card and how you where billed and paid.

As I've said this has happened to me a a bunch of people I played and jam with.  I have gone through this literally dozens of times, to the point where I will now not even look at a builders website until I've seen their product in the flesh, and won't part with a penny if they keep their building process a secret, or are secretive about how they build teir guitars.  And who cares if they don't have any UK assets or pressence, it's a FAMILY business, if you win, and they are due to pay you, that means until they pay you, the UK is off limits to  the for holidays - will bde picked up at immigration an d escorted to a cell and given a choice topay up plus a fine, or be charged for the next flight back to the states and a huge fine, plus being banned from entering the UK for a number of years, and secondly, with a court order against Frank Bfrothers as a company, the UK market becomes closed to the company for expansion, advertising....... until they settle up.

And lastly you can't sign away you UK consumer rights, nor laws, no matter what is written on the contract, any lawyer worth the weight of the admittedly good qualty paper their degree is printed on will tell you that - there is even the argument that the buyer was forced to  doso under duress, just like you can't sign away any of you'r human rights in the countries the recognise the UN's HRA, why do you think GoG- Good Old Games couldn't process visa or paypal payments for close to a month and had to use BTC, they changed their T&C to state those not living in the EU, fell under California consumer protection laws, and jurisdiction.

Also, don't forget, every guitar retailer in America wouldn't be surprised if a brand new guitar they sent out to a customer in that state was returned, more so if it was an expensive one

fretmeister

CavemanGrogg said:

fretmeister said:

CavemanGrogg said:

Jtaylor said:

I am after some advice....

I ordered a custom guitar from Frank Brothers guitar company last November and it arrived this week. The guitar plays well and sounds great but it has some flaws in the finish, namely a run / drip in the lacquer and some black specks that are under the finish. I am rather unhappy with the flaws, especially considering the price of the guitar, please see photos below: 

https://imgur.com/kbQsqCy
https://imgur.com/u3CvjG7

SNIP…..

This just isn't true.

Jurisdictional conflicts are often the first part of any contract case that involves an international border.

Most of the time for a custom order the contract for sale will state the laws that apply within the text. And it's never outside of the sellers location. Why on earth would they worry about complying with every law in other countries? Simply - they won't.

Even in UK to UK contracts like for your credit card it will state what jurisdiction the parties are agreeing to use for any dispute resolution. And once the order has been made the terms have been accepted. The terms are there in case you use your UK card in the USA and realise you might get punitive damages there... but you already agreed that England & Wales law applies when you got the card in the first place.

So no - you can't rock up in Canada and rely on the UK Sales of Goods Act, and if you try to sue in the UK (if the Canadian company even has any UK assets to make it worth a go) the court (after you've spend 3 days of lawyers fees arguing about it) will likely say the item is made in Canada, sold in Canada, then shipped elsewhere so Canadian law applies and the claimant should sue in Canada.

The Unfair Contract Terms and Conditions Act doesn't apply for this either.


The Chinese made TV is a red herring. It might be made in China, but it's sold in Currys / Tesco / whereever which is a UK company. It's not in the same ballpark, it's not even the same sport.

Oh yes it is, you want to sell  toys in the UK, by UK laws they must meet UK standards for everything from materials used, paints, chemicals, size of pieces - chocking harzards and shit, right down to the carbon footprint - the amount of pollution, and the treatment of the work force.  The same goes for food, notice we don't see chlorinated chicken on the selves of UK supermarkets, and much to America's disapointment  is against UK laws to both import for personal use, or to  sell for profit.  Supply and logistics is what used to do for a living, specifically finding suppliers in Asia for a Scotland based company, ensuring that they not only met the company's requirements, but also the legal requirements, and getting those products from Asia to  Scotland. 

And he can take this to court and would win, simply on the grounds that Frank Brothers are probably not going to bother to hire a UK lawyer yet alone turn up for the case, should he dedcide to take them to court  Then there is the whole warranty provided by the means of purchase, different depending on if you paid via credit card or debit card and how you where billed and paid.

As I've said this has happened to me a a bunch of people I played and jam with.  I have gone through this literally dozens of times, to the point where I will now not even look at a builders website until I've seen their product in the flesh, and won't part with a penny if they keep their building process a secret, or are secretive about how they build teir guitars.

And what part of a one off custom guitar do you think has to comply with any of that? Almost none of it.

This isn’t BMW wanting to sell cars here with safety standards etc. This is a custom guitar build.

And, as you don’t seem to have realised, this is a contract dispute for something that isn’t quite right. This is not a safety standards dispute.

But let’s explore this more as you are clearly an expert.

If you sue in the UK you must serve the proceedings on the defendant. Cannot have a trial or judgment without it. Not even a default judgment. Even a default requires proof of service.

But as per CPR Part 6 you need (really need, not optional) permission of the court to serve the pleadings outside of the jurisdiction. You would first have to convince the court that there is an arguable case that the laws of England and Wales apply for this contract dispute and present evidence of that. Only then will you get permission. Just sending it to the defendant does not count as service apart from some small exceptions. 

Make your case: explain with reference to primary legislation, including the relevant treaty, why the court would allow the service of the pleadings outside of England and Wales for a Small Claims matter. Don’t forget to include the criteria for re-tracking into the multitrack and the associated costs risks.

Then for the next part, please fully explain what remedy the court could impose? Full refund? Partial?

And most important of all, let’s say you get over all of that… how would you enforce the judgment of a UK court in Canada against a Canadian company.

Please give full citations. Legislation, Treaties, and the Canadian process for considering the enforcement of judgments from other countries, including value restrictions such as not allowing enforcement for small sums at all because it’s a waste of time.

By the way, to answer this you will need to make reference to the Canadian constitution.


Edit: don’t forget that judgments in Alberta aren’t even automatically enforceable in Quebec!

And don’t forget to show how foreign judgments are registered in the relevant province of Canada (all have different rules) and whether after a UK judgment has been obtained whether it can be enforced in its own merit or whether new proceedings are needed in the correct Canadian province first.

fretmeister

To the OP.

If you paid by credit card or PayPal they are probably your best options to assist. If you used another method then unless you can negotiate something with the maker it’s highly likely that you’d spend more money trying to argue it than you’d ever get back.

Do you have the full terms of the purchase contract available?

Philly_Q

@Jtaylor I don't want to get involved in the international contract law debate, but I remember your thread when you were planning to order this guitar, and I thought the guitars on the Frank Brothers site looked very impressive.  I'm sorry to hear the end result was such a disappointment, and I really hope you manage to get some kind of compensation.

fretmeister

OP.

I found these guys.

https://www.ukecc.net/about/our-process


They don’t mention Canada as a “partner” specifically but it seems they are able to advise on the rights for consumer disputes with companies outside of the UK where UK law doesn’t apply.

Might be worth sending them an email. They may have other contacts.

Also, this confirms contractual disputes could be subject to multiple jurisdictions for the court to sort out as I previously said, including being able to specify what jurisdiction / laws apply.

https://www.weightmans.com/insights/do-you-know-which-jurisdiction-governs-your-contract/

So try and find the paper work.

GoldenEraGuitars

These issues, while a tad annoying, are easily sorted with a Stanley blade, various grades of paper and buffing compound. You should contact your local tech to ask if they know a guitar finisher who can sort it locally. It’s certainly not a reason to dislike the guitar to the point of wanting to return it

Boromedic

I'm so sorry your dream guitar order has turned out to have a slightly disappointing finish mate, how did you find the stainless frets? 

All the good advice above is what I'd follow, chase them for the cost of getting someone here to fix the issues otherwise shame them on social media. At the cost of these guitars that's really not acceptable, especially not on a custom order. If that fails, PayPal or Credit Card is the way to pursue them. 

Best of luck mate.

elstoof

CavemanGrogg said:

Oh yes it is, you want to sell  toys in the UK, by UK laws they must meet UK standards for everything from materials used, paints, chemicals, size of pieces - chocking harzards and shit, right down to the carbon footprint - the amount of pollution, and the treatment of the work force.  The same goes for food, notice we don't see chlorinated chicken on the selves of UK supermarkets, and much to America's disapointment  

You don’t buy these things direct from China or wherever though, you buy them via a U.K. distributor who’s job is to ensure the goods meet U.K. standards. You can buy American meat, chicken, steak etc in the U.K., but whoever distributes it will have to specify no chlorine, growth hormones, steroids and anything else that’s forbidden. If a company chooses to distribute internationally themselves then it’s up to them how they deal with disputes like this, when you widen the net of clients beyond the domestic market they can either be arseholes who won’t back their product up or go the extra mile to keep all customers happy regardless of location

barnstorm

GoldenEraGuitars said:

These issues, while a tad annoying, are easily sorted with a Stanley blade, various grades of paper and buffing compound. You should contact your local tech to ask if they know a guitar finisher who can sort it locally. It’s certainly not a reason to dislike the guitar to the point of wanting to return it

FB is a company that bleats on about being meticulous, so I don't think the OP was being unreasonable in expecting perfect fit and finish. Unique shape, colour etc aside, what most people are buying when they commission an instrument is a level of care that most major manufacturers just can't afford/can't be bothered to deliver. I don't disagree with the principle, though – if a guitar is 99% a knockout and another like it isn't sitting on a peg waiting for you, a minor flaw is worth rectifying.  

Thing that strikes me most is how customer service people always know exactly the wrong thing to say. Apologise properly for an obvious oversight, offer to cover the cost of a touch-up, and most customers would be all smiles again – and many would probably just decide to live with the flaw.

This is like walking into a bakery to collect an expensive and doubtless delicious cake, seeing a big old hair on top of it and being told by the baker that you just don't understand how baking works.

Blaendulais

barnstorm said:

This is like walking into a bakery to collect an expensive and doubtless delicious cake, seeing a big old hair on top of it and being told by the baker that you just don't understand how baking works.

Not really the cake certainly shouldnt be eaten but the guitar can be played

barnstorm

Blaendulais said:

barnstorm said:

This is like walking into a bakery to collect an expensive and doubtless delicious cake, seeing a big old hair on top of it and being told by the baker that you just don't understand how baking works.

Not really the cake certainly shouldnt be eaten but the guitar can be played

I just mean the way they're condescending to a customer who knows exactly how difficult it isn't to do things properly. I've no doubt it's a very good guitar, and as above I might find it easier to overlook the issues than the OP – but it's his money, and I'm sure the sales spiel doesn't include any mention of the 'nonuniformities' of a handcrafted guitar.

fretmeister

If you’ve ever had a “meat” kebab from a van at 3 am and eaten it, I’m not sure a “don’t eat” food analogy works! 

prlgmnr

Would you accept the cake if they took the hair off, would you demand a rebake or would a refinish be acceptable?

Offset

prlgmnr said:

Would you accept the cake if they took the hair off, would you demand a rebake or would a refinish be acceptable?

I don't think that I can take it, 'cause it took so long to bake it.  And I'll never have that recipe again.  Oh no.

barnstorm

prlgmnr said:

Would you accept the cake if they took the hair off, would you demand a rebake or would a refinish be acceptable?

A free iced bun would see me right.

And a pack of strings, of course…

Blaendulais

barnstorm said:

Blaendulais said:

barnstorm said:

This is like walking into a bakery to collect an expensive and doubtless delicious cake, seeing a big old hair on top of it and being told by the baker that you just don't understand how baking works.

Not really the cake certainly shouldnt be eaten but the guitar can be played

I just mean the way they're condescending to a customer who knows exactly how difficult it isn't to do things properly. I've no doubt it's a very good guitar, and as above I might find it easier to overlook the issues than the OP – but it's his money, and I'm sure the sales spiel doesn't include any mention of the 'nonuniformities' of a handcrafted guitar.

I know ! 

jimification

I've only painted a couple of guitars and I'm the worst kind of shonky DIY guitar finisher (rattle cans in the shed) but I would definitely have noticed that run and would have dealt with it.

"In the art of guitar making every instrument has its own unique indications of being a handcrafted object"

Paint runs? - "Unique indications of being a handcrafted object"? That reply, right there would have the guitar back in the box and going back for a refund for me. What utter bilge.

Philly_Q

barnstorm said:

Thing that strikes me most is how customer service people always know exactly the wrong thing to say. Apologise properly for an obvious oversight, offer to cover the cost of a touch-up, and most customers would be all smiles again – and many would probably just decide to live with the flaw.

Totally agree.  Although I doubt Frank Bros are a big enough concern to have dedicated customer service staff, they should have sufficient common sense, and pride in their work, to immediately take responsibility for the flaws and offer some kind of solution.

GoldenEraGuitars

barnstorm said:

GoldenEraGuitars said:

These issues, while a tad annoying, are easily sorted with a Stanley blade, various grades of paper and buffing compound. You should contact your local tech to ask if they know a guitar finisher who can sort it locally. It’s certainly not a reason to dislike the guitar to the point of wanting to return it

This is like walking into a bakery to collect an expensive and doubtless delicious cake, seeing a big old hair on top of it and being told by the baker that you just don't understand how baking works.

No, it’s really not.