Jerry Sadowitz cancelled

Offset

Sassafras said:

I'm fairly sure racists felt more emboldened by Enoch Powell than Alf Garnett.

Silver linings...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/14/enoch-powell-rivers-blood-legacy-wolverhampton

Sassafras

TeleMaster said:

Sassafras said:

I'm fairly sure racists felt more emboldened by Enoch Powell than Alf Garnett.

Yea. And Hitler too.That doesn't mean that they didn't also feel emboldened by Alf Garnett too, and other racists all at the same time... 

Hitler and Powell weren't professional comedians. I think you're overstating the influence Alf Garnett had on racists.

TeleMaster

Offset said:

TeleMaster said:

Because incitement is a thing, it is a crime. So if people incite others to act in a certain way, or commit a particular crime because of their influence then that is against the law. It's fairly simple. It may be intentional, it may not be, but it may still be incitement. So you have to think about the consequences of your actions when you say and do things. That's just part of living in a functioning society.

You can't scream 'FIRE' as a joke in a packed theatre to see how fast people can run, as a comment on how fast people are and then when someone gets trampled to death claim they took it 'out of context' like some Love Island contestant who gets caught saying something mad about poor people, or it's just 'comedy'. 

While I understand the intention of Till Death Do Us Part, it was ultimately so poorly done that it empowered the people it was meant to shine a light on. That is by any measure a complete and utter failure. It was crass and particularly lazy in its delivery and I cannot agree that it 'moved culture on' more than it stifled progress because so many people identified with Alf Garnett.

That show is not a good example. I really believe that it proves my point more than it does yours because so many people channeled Alf Garnetts racism and felt he represented them. 

Good post.  But TDUDP can't be criticised too hard.  It was of its time.  Its intentions were altruistic and Warren Mitchell was both Jewish and a staunch socialist and would have been appalled had his character been used as a justification for racial violence or abuse.  You can't legislate for the fact that a depressingly significant number of any programme's audience will be as thick as pigshit.  I remember when Alex Haley's Roots was first broadcast in the UK; it spawned some extremely unpleasant 'humour' but that didn't mean to say it shouldn't have been made.  It was by and large a very positive and powerful piece.

I remember Rudolph Walker being interviewed by Jonathan Ross on the radio some years back.  He was asked if he regretted appearing in 'Love Thy Neighbour' because of a similar TDUDP reaction to it by some of the more simian sections of our society, and because it made use of (mild) racist language.  "Not at all", replied Walker.  "The black guy always won."

Thanks. Yea I know what you mean, and I'm aware of that. But can you imagine creating a TV show, yes, of its time with all that racist language and lots of people just miss the point and end up identifying with the racist scumbag character and he almost becomes a folk hero for them? What a sad outcome. And yea, more fool on them, but it gave them someone to identify with, so that's a real shame and an uncomfortable outcome.

I don't remember just mild racist language. I remember some pretty out there racist language and imagery.

Simonh said:

TeleMaster said:

Because incitement is a thing, it is a crime. So if people incite others to act in a certain way, or commit a particular crime because of their influence then that is against the law. It's fairly simple. It may be intentional, it may not be, but it may still be incitement. So you have to think about the consequences of your actions when you say and do things. That's just part of living in a functioning society.

You can't scream 'FIRE' as a joke in a packed theatre to see how fast people can run, as a comment on how fast people are and then when someone gets trampled to death claim they took it 'out of context' like some Love Island contestant who gets caught saying something mad about poor people, or it's just 'comedy'. 

While I understand the intention of Till Death Do Us Part, it was ultimately so poorly done that it empowered the people it was meant to shine a light on. That is by any measure a complete and utter failure. It was crass and particularly lazy in its delivery and I cannot agree that it 'moved culture on' more than it stifled progress because so many people identified with Alf Garnett.

That show is not a good example. I really believe that it proves my point more than it does yours because so many people channeled Alf Garnetts racism and felt he represented them. 

And i think the fact it is even being discussed now shows that it had a positive impact.

However the point I think we agree on is that you can't just say racist shit, or use racist terms and shrug your shoulders and say "muh comedy" and if you are going to include that sort of material not only do you need to be clever with it to make the non racists point you want to make you also have to accept that there will be an inevitable element of push back for doing it in the first place.

Happy to agree on the second part.  

Offset

TeleMaster said:

Sassafras said:

I'm fairly sure racists felt more emboldened by Enoch Powell than Alf Garnett.

Yea. And Hitler too.That doesn't mean that they didn't also feel emboldened by Alf Garnett too, and other racists all at the same time... 

May I ask how old you were when TDUDP was broadcast?

jonnyburgo

My dad used to love Alf Garnett, thought he was hilarious but then he voted Brexit even though he hasn't lived here for 16 years (cheers dad) and still refers to black people as wogs. We don't see each other often.

Grumpyrocker

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

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jonnyburgo said:

My dad used to love Alf Garnett, thought he was hilarious but then he voted Brexit even though he hasn't lived here for 16 years (cheers dad) and still refers to black people as wogs. We don't see each other often.

I get it.  Perhaps TDUDP was a bit ahead of its time.

My mum was a teacher in the east end of London in the '50s.  She always referred to black people as 'darkies' until late in her life.  Generational, but inexcusable.

euan

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

Christ I had forgotten about Fisher Stevens and Short Circuit 2. And it being much worse than you initially think 

TeleMaster

Offset said:

TeleMaster said:

Sassafras said:

I'm fairly sure racists felt more emboldened by Enoch Powell than Alf Garnett.

Yea. And Hitler too.That doesn't mean that they didn't also feel emboldened by Alf Garnett too, and other racists all at the same time... 

May I ask how old you were when TDUDP was broadcast?

Nope. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. 

Offset

TeleMaster said:

Offset said:

TeleMaster said:

Sassafras said:

I'm fairly sure racists felt more emboldened by Enoch Powell than Alf Garnett.

Yea. And Hitler too.That doesn't mean that they didn't also feel emboldened by Alf Garnett too, and other racists all at the same time... 

May I ask how old you were when TDUDP was broadcast?

Nope. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. 

Fair enough.

Offset

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

Do you honestly think Warren Mitchell would have taken part in this?  Get real.

TeleMaster

Offset said:

TeleMaster said:

Offset said:

TeleMaster said:

Sassafras said:

I'm fairly sure racists felt more emboldened by Enoch Powell than Alf Garnett.

Yea. And Hitler too.That doesn't mean that they didn't also feel emboldened by Alf Garnett too, and other racists all at the same time... 

May I ask how old you were when TDUDP was broadcast?

Nope. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. 

Fair enough.

Actually, out of interest why, and then I'll decide? 

Grumpyrocker

Offset said:

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

Do you honestly think Warren Mitchell would have taken part in this?  Get real.

Nice straw man 

Philly_Q

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

I felt curiously compelled to read that whole, very long, article.  Wow.  It may not seem like it sometimes, but the world really has changed, thank god.

thumpingrug

Offset said:

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

Do you honestly think Warren Mitchell would have taken part in this?  Get real.

I had never heard of Curry and Chips but was a fan of Spike M and Eric S.  I read the whole of the article and feel slightly sickened.   I have a vague recollection of "comedy shows" On the Busses and It Aint half Hot Mum, (also a very late 70s/early 80s one about a foreign language school) being racist and sexist, but even they seem to pail against Curry and Chips.

mart

While we're on the theme of sit-coms, am I the only one who finds Doc Martin offensive in that most of its humour comes from laughing at someone's autism?

Grumpyrocker

thumpingrug said:

Offset said:

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

Do you honestly think Warren Mitchell would have taken part in this?  Get real.

I had never heard of Curry and Chips but was a fan of Spike M and Eric S.  I read the whole of the article and feel slightly sickened.   I have a vague recollection of "comedy shows" On the Busses and It Aint half Hot Mum, (also a very late 70s/early 80s one about a foreign language school) being racist and sexist, but even they seem to pail against Curry and Chips.

Sadly Spike was a massive racist. I was a big fan as a kid - loved my parent's Goon Show records. But Spike's racism is in most of his work and his writings. He knew exactly what he was doing with stuff like Curry & Chips, and so did Johnny Speight. And his Curry & Chips character appeared several times in Alf Garnett's show. 

Offset

Grumpyrocker said:

thumpingrug said:

Offset said:

Grumpyrocker said:

Oh the old Alf Garnett myth, that Johnny Speight wasn't a massive racist and the show poked fun at racism. 

Have a read about Johnny's other show Curry & Chips. 

https://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/curry-chips/

Do you honestly think Warren Mitchell would have taken part in this?  Get real.

I had never heard of Curry and Chips but was a fan of Spike M and Eric S.  I read the whole of the article and feel slightly sickened.   I have a vague recollection of "comedy shows" On the Busses and It Aint half Hot Mum, (also a very late 70s/early 80s one about a foreign language school) being racist and sexist, but even they seem to pail against Curry and Chips.

Sadly Spike was a massive racist. I was a big fan as a kid - loved my parent's Goon Show records. But Spike's racism is in most of his work and his writings. He knew exactly what he was doing with stuff like Curry & Chips, and so did Johnny Speight. And his Curry & Chips character appeared several times in Alf Garnett's show. 

Sorry - yes, I knew Spike was a racist.  Sad as he could be extremely funny, but I don't think he was a particularly nice man.  The point I was trying (badly) to make was that I don't think Warren Mitchell would have appeared in a show if he'd believed it to be racist.

Grumpyrocker

Perhaps poor Warren didn't realise the monster he had created. Nor that Johnny Speight was taking him for a ride.

But he did scenes with Spike in his Curry & Chips role, he must have known. He must have. 

bertie

bloody cancel culture