59 Conversion - I dare say a healthy discussion will follow

guitars4you

For sale in the forth coming auction at Gardiner and Houlgate - 25-30K estimate - of course + fees

https://www.guitar-auctions.co.uk/sale/177/465/Early-1950s-Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-59-Conversion-electric-
Early 1950s Gibson Les Paul Standard '59 Conversion electric guitar; Body: faded burst finished two piece maple re-top upon original mahogany body, old Bigsby holes present (top holes plugged), buckle scratches to back, light checking and other marks; Neck: mahogany, blemish behind 11th fret, further minor marks, '59 range serial stamp, new head face veneer and logo; Fretboard: Brazilian rosewood with original inlays; Frets: good, refret; Electrics: working, 'Patent Applied For' humbucker pickups, later potentiometers, switch tip possibly correct; Hardware: repro tuners, repro bridge and stop bar, repro pickguard, OTP 'M-69' white plastic pickup rings, repro control knobs; Case: '59 period five latch Stone hard case; Weight: 3.79kg; Overall condition: good * Purchased by the vendor from an Internationally recognised successful record producer whom acquired the guitar from a musician colleague. Sold with a signed letter from the previous owner stating 'To whom it may concern, I have enjoyed collecting vintage guitars throughout my career in the music business and have owned many rare and valuable examples. I acquired this converted Les Paul in 1989 whilst I was working in USA .... Although at the time the guitar had been refinished red, I recognise that the guitar would have started life as a 1952 or 1953 Gibson Les Paul Gold Top. The guitar had been routed to accommodate humbucker pickups and a Tune O Matic bridge and stop tail, assembly had also been installed. At this time it did not a bare a serial number. It was a fantastic instrument! Over the next twenty eight years I used this Les Paul on various recording projects. In 2017 I sold The Les Paul (to the vendor) a vintage guitar collector local to me. (He) explained that he intended to give the Les Paul to vintage guitar expert Gary Winterflood, owner of Guitar Avenue Ltd. to coordinate it's conversion to '59 spec Les Paul Standard by their guitar Luthier of high repute known as 'The Stigg'. I kept in touch with (the vendor) during the process of witnessing my old guitar going the various stages of it's progression. (signed) Regards' **Sold with laminated photographs showing the previous owner holding the instrument in the studio 1980s and a photo of him holding the guitar as it is now. Also including photographs showing the guitar alongside other guitars in his collection, one showing the guitar stood next to the Duggie Lock burst. Other photos show close ups of the fretboard inlays when the guitar had it's red finish, showing a 'fingerprint' match to the guitar as it is now. The early '50s to '59 spec conversion was coordinated by Gary Winterflood and carried out by the guitar luthier known 'The Stigg'. Whilst most of the hardware and electrics on the guitar are repro it is appears that the pickups are probably original PAFS, and are the pickups that came installed when acquired by the vendor. ***Sold with Cites A10 certificate no. 618536/01

impmann

Burst bollocks. Yawn.

rossi

Go for it but make sure you upgrade to Harley Benton pickups the minute you get it

DaevidJ

That's a lot for triggers broom!

ICBM

I’m always curious about these “59 range” serial numbers. Presumably whoever picks it is careful to check the list of known ones, but what happens if an original with the same number is then found? It seems a bit dodgy to me. Surely it would be better to pick one *outside* the known range of ‘59 Les Paul numbers.

In my opinion it would be better still with no number, a number beginning with something like the letter C instead of the 9, or possibly (although it opens the same possible can of worms) a 52 or 53 number, since that’s what the guitar actually is

roberty

I'm even more confused after reading the description

Offset

"Purchased by the vendor from an Internationally recognised successful record producer..."

 ...based in Southend-On-Sea.

impmann

"Probably Original PAFs"

Just like its "probably" a 1950s guitar.

boogieman

ICBM said:

I’m always curious about these “59 range” serial numbers. Presumably whoever picks it is careful to check the list of known ones, but what happens if an original with the same number is then found? It seems a bit dodgy to me. Surely it would be better to pick one *outside* the known range of ‘59 Les Paul numbers.

In my opinion it would be better still with no number, a number beginning with something like the letter C instead of the 9, or possibly (although it opens the same possible can of worms) a 52 or 53 number, since that’s what the guitar actually is

I don’t mind the conversion, it looks like a very decent quality job. The problem for me is putting a period correct serial number on a guitar like this. It means someone could (unknowingly or unscrupulously) try to pass it off as a completely original guitar. I agree it’s actually better off without a serial number, or even something vastly different. I guess people will argue that anyone spending the sort of money that this is likely to cost would know it’s a mongrel or get it checked over thoroughly by an expert first, but there’s a sucker born every minute as they say. 

guitars4you

DaevidJ said:

That's a lot for triggers broom!

not sure to lol or wiz

roberty said:

I'm even more confused after reading the description

me to - I'm glad such guitars don't generally appeal to me - I don't mind a players grade example, with/without refin and even a broken headstock, all at the right price of course, but potentially 30K for such a bitsa baffles me - I saw one at the North East Guitar Show in March - Similar price and I looked at it trying to suss out the how, why, what etc - I've seen some similar conversions that are 'more straight fwd' and well done but this just appears to be to big a mess - New serial number, headstock veneer + logo, refin - So kind of what is kosher about it - Seen some postings by @jumping@shadows that look far more desirable and credible - This just has far to many negatives and very little positives IMO

Offset said:

"Purchased by the vendor from an Internationally recognised successful record producer..."

 ...based in Southend-On-Sea.

that was my 1st thought as well

guitars4you

boogieman said:

ICBM said:

I’m always curious about these “59 range” serial numbers. Presumably whoever picks it is careful to check the list of known ones, but what happens if an original with the same number is then found? It seems a bit dodgy to me. Surely it would be better to pick one *outside* the known range of ‘59 Les Paul numbers.

In my opinion it would be better still with no number, a number beginning with something like the letter C instead of the 9, or possibly (although it opens the same possible can of worms) a 52 or 53 number, since that’s what the guitar actually is

I don’t mind the conversion, it looks like a very decent quality job. The problem for me is putting a period correct serial number on a guitar like this. It means someone could (unknowingly or unscrupulously) try to pass it off as a completely original guitar. I agree it’s actually better off without a serial number, or even something vastly different. I guess people will argue that anyone spending the sort of money that this is likely to cost would know it’s a mongrel or get it checked over thoroughly by an expert first, but there’s a sucker born every minute as they say. 

I'd prefer it to have kept its original number so as to obtain some form of originality/credibility - If that makes sense - But now it has little in it to tell me that Gibson even made any of it - New serial number, headstock veneer + logo 

I can accept the idea of a conversion and appreciate some guys, like Yuki, can offer some fine examples - But this one comes across as far to iffy IMO

Reading the posting again - It even has a new figured top - I'm sure I've seen other conversions where it has been discovered that the top was slightly figured, under the original gold top finish, so then converted to a 59 accordingly and retains some 'original' features hence more credible 

Think the humbuckers and case are the only + points in this example

BillDL

Write-off cars that were salvage rebuilds used to be registered as "Q Plates" so that this always followed them and people would be aware.  THAT is what the big guitar brands should create for scrupulous people.  The means to assign a period correct serial number with a prefix or suffix letter that immediately shows there have been substantial changes.  Unfortunately there are always going to be unscrupulous people  ......   however, anybody that has 20 to 30 to "invest" in a vintage guitar should ensure that they, or an expert on their behalf if they are not knowledgeable enough, are able to thoroughly inspect and research the guitar before bidding.

I seriously don't know what makes them valued that much money other than rarity, and that aspect has been affected by the modifications.  No matter how expertly a luthier might restore it to its original finish it will never be original again, so the rarity aspect is void.  In this case I don't think the figuring on the new maple top is very good for that kind of money.  The "eye" figuring on the lower top bout doesn't look as though it's bookmatched on the lower bout.  I would want it to be properly bookmatched if I was paying a tenth of the price for a much more recent and plentiful model.

I've got absolutely nothing against anybody "converting" any guitar quite simply because I think that they should be played rather than stuck in a case and valued at an obscene price.

fretfinder

Re-topped = instantly ruined as a ‘vintage’ guitar imho.

guitars4you said: Seen some postings by @jumping@shadows that look far more desirable and credible.

I must’ve missed those… 

WezV

"maple re-top upon original mahogany body, old Bigsby holes present (top holes plugged),"


Top holes wouldn't need plugging if the old top has gone??  

BillDL

I wonder if it's just a maple veneer rather than full maple caps.

Offset

WezV said:

"maple re-top upon original mahogany body, old Bigsby holes present (top holes plugged),"


Top holes wouldn't need plugging if the old top has gone??  

Unless I've misunderstood, perhaps the now-absent Bigsby was fitted post-re-top...?

*EDIT - whatever, it sounds like a bit of a dog's dinner...

guitars4you

WezV said:

"maple re-top upon original mahogany body, old Bigsby holes present (top holes plugged),"


Top holes wouldn't need plugging if the old top has gone??  

appreciate a more detailed input - I wondered about that so thanks for update

richardhomer

The issue with these is how do you authenticate what are supposedly ‘original’ elements? And is it ‘better’ than a CS reissue/hand-built fake/‘clone’?

This kind of thing is the very opposite of what the vintage market generally prizes (ie originality beyond all else). I’m afraid I just don’t get it…

WezV

BillDL said:

I wonder if it's just a maple veneer rather than full maple caps.

It doesn't look like it from the grain, and the pickup cavity shots seem to confirm its solid

Offset said:

Unless I've misunderstood, perhaps the now-absent Bigsby was fitted post-re-top...?

*EDIT - whatever, it sounds like a bit of a dog's dinner...

True.  I think i can just about see them.

A butt shot is important but rarely shown with conversions, especially pre-wraparound ones

flying_pie

richardhomer said:

The issue with these is how do you authenticate what are supposedly ‘original’ elements? And is it ‘better’ than a CS reissue/hand-built fake/‘clone’?

You can't and it's not.

The asking price is completely taking the piss. I wouldn't have been surprised to read that it had previously been routed for a Floyd Rose and then restored by Ed Roman

WezV

in fairness, it all looks to be really well done and honestly listed.  This isn't like some of the dodgy eBay conversions we see from time to time. 

The market will decide it's value