Money, status etc

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

No apology needed - I'm being at least as judgemental as everyone else. I think all of us have blind spots about how we view strangers. We get to see a moment of their behaviour, but nothing of their internal life. I remember a customer probably twenty years ago saying "the problem with young people these days is that they have no internal life". I asked him how he knew, and he got rather upset.

I don't disagree about materialism - new phones every year in particular, cars are more likely to move on to different owners.

This is true, but it's important to recognise we are all biased and think we are right because of our own unique experiences and upbringing through life.

I like "internal life" as a term. Humans are both incredibly simple and wildly complex. I can read people relatively well, but some behaviours always surprise me.

I don't consider myself to have much of an ego, but the other day at work, someone questioned me (rigorously) about a solution I proposed. This is normal and *good* - taking in viewpoints and addressing questions cannot be bad, even when those viewpoints are somewhat uninformed, because they are ultimately going to be impacted by the solution implemented. I felt confident in my answers and the solution was implemented. I received very good feedback. I felt great, too. 

I didn't sleep that night, because my ego received such a beating during said questioning. It wasn't wrong for that to happen, but it just goes to show how fragile and dumb we can all be. I don't know how to address that particular issue, it happens rarely, but I felt really genuinely hurt - even though at the time I was fired up and excited to solve this problem, some hours later I found myself feeling like an imposter that didn't deserve the job I have. 

jonnyburgo

I don't think that buying is necessarily an insecurity thing but maybe a belief that if I just have this and then this and this I'll be happy, like GAS thinking if I get a "real" vintage guitar then it will elevate my playing or make me feel differently when I play and after a while it's just a guitar. It's interesting and don't think that I'm putting myself in some elevated moral position by discussing it because I'm not.

RaymondLin

RandallFlagg said:

ZenOvertone said:

Most of those cars are likely to be on finance of one sort or another (PCP or straight loan)!

^^ I just see big lumps of interest bearing debt driving around me and note that there are no car payments on my bank statement.

Which is the more satisfying experience? Driving to the local Asda in a luxury car knowing that I have a £350+ monthly payment going out, month in month out, on the never never, or, being completely debt free driving in my 7 year old bought and paid for, passed it's MOT and freshly serviced Citroen, seeing plenty of money money go into my pension each month bringing early retirement ever closer and seeing the cash fund to buy it's replacement in a few years build up?

I know the answer   

https://youtu.be/WbBVoe9Lr94

My only monthly debt is my mortgage.  The only unsecured debt that i have is my monthly credit card bill that i pay in full.  

I have nothing on PCP, i have nothing on Buy now pay later. I own every material possession that I have.  I have thought about getting a new iPhone recently and since Apple offer no interest payment spread over 2 years, at the cost of about £40 a month...i thought to myself, even though i have the cash to buy it outright, it is actually a wiser financial decision to do it this way and earn the interest of the money and spread the payment.

But mentally i just don't like it, twice I have been on that website trying to buy it, and twice filling in that "credit check" form I just closed the browser.  My mind just doesn't like to take on a loan for something like an iPhone, a luxury good.  I would rather just buy it outright and technically be worse off financially.  

Next door neightbour's kid is in her late teens or early 20's, her boyfriend often comes over and I know because he parks right outside my house in his brand new, private number plate Audi RS3.

As a late teens or barely turned 20 kid, that is most likely to be on finance, living at home and paying half his wages for that car.

I am more prouder to own my C30 outright. 

ThePrettyDamned

jonnyburgo said:

I don't think that buying is necessarily an insecurity thing but maybe a belief that if I just have this and then this and this I'll be happy, like GAS thinking if I get a "real" vintage guitar then it will elevate my playing or make me feel differently when I play and after a while it's just a guitar. It's interesting and don't think that I'm putting myself in some elevated moral position by discussing it because I'm not.

Honestly, I just like owning things anyway.

It's a negative trait of mine, but I can't deny it. I love having stuff. I love having books that I don't read and that's stupid. I have fishing kit that gets used once a year. I have guitars assembled that don't get played but I like them.

I don't think those things make me better at anything, but materially, I like having them. I don't know why to be honest. 

roberty

@ThePrettyDamned you're not doing it to impress anyone

There was a study that correlated the number of books in the house with literacy outcomes for children. They don't have to be read, they just have to be there. They could only guess as to why this was the case though. I think there's value to having unread books in the house https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/oct/10/growing-up-in-a-house-full-of-books-is-major-boost-to-literacy-and-numeracy-study-finds

There are people who genuinely care about social status which is just alien to me

Offset

I haven't 'owned' a car for years.  I currently lease a Smart For Four as a runaround, principally for my daughter.  Our company also leases an Audi estate which is used for our business and carting the mutts around.  Whether that continues in the current economic climate remains to be seen.  Pointless blowing your money on some uber-expensive car and even more pointless owning something.  >25% down the u-bend the minute you drive off the forecourt.

I'm usually a scruffy bastard these days.  Day-job WFH means I rarely venture out of a t-shirt and jeans/shorts.  I haven't bought any casual clothes to speak of since before lockdown.  I don't own a work suit for my day-job but I have some decent shirts, chinos and jackets for those fairly rare occasions when I need to go into the office.

We own our house outright but we haven't had any work done to it in 18 years.  We've just bitten the bullet and got a builder in to do a load of remedial work (been putting it off!) which is going to cost us a shit-load.  Has to be done though.  The house is our cushion/nest egg for post-retirement and we'll significantly down-size at some point.

I don't really mind how others perceive us.  As long as we're reasonably comfortable and can help our daughter out as she finds her way in life then that's good enough for me.

Reverend

Pretty sure real status comes from paying for escorts rather than prostitutes. or something.

Sporky

Offset said:
 even more pointless owning something.  >25% down the u-bend the minute you drive off the forecourt.

Only if you sell it the moment you drive it off the forecourt.

To me car ownership has to be seen as an ongoing expense, whether you lease something shiny or spend your weekends trawling scrapyard and welding. Or owt betwixt. 

Stevepage

If they can afford it, why not. 

Are they projecting? Some probably are but I’d reckon most bought these cars/things just because they liked them and could afford them.

if I had a hell of a lot of money, I’d certainly drive around in a nice car and live in a nice house. Not to show off to others (I couldn’t care less what people think) but because I have a genuine interest/love in certain cars and would like a bigger house with a big garden just to live a bit more comfortably. 

fretmeister

Sporky said:

I spend most of my income on Givenchy bin liners so that the waste management operatives think well of me. 

Are you ok?

I don't remember you being funny.

fretmeister

RaymondLin said:

I can't remember the exact quote but over 25 years ago, I saw Ally McBeal and there was this episode about death and what is important.  What is important isn't job title or how much money you have, a person's achievement and wealth are defined by the people who come to his or her funeral. 

What if the funeral guests are all debt collectors?

CHRISB50

Has anyone watched The Minimalists on Netflix? It’s quite relevant to this thread. I quite enjoyed it, although it is a piece of marketing in itself.

I (as some others have said) quite like ‘stuff’, but I hate clutter. So I tend to research a lot, and buy less, but (in my opinion) better. 

I like nice things, but I’m quite sensible about buying them. I buy things because I like them. Not because I think someone else may form an opinion based on them. 

I'm also quite specific about what I will spend money on. 

Cars do not bother me in the slightest. I hate spending money on cars, but I'd quite happily spend what most people would think is an outrageous amount on a pair of shoes.

Each to their own.

fretmeister

Sporky said:

Offset said:
 even more pointless owning something.  >25% down the u-bend the minute you drive off the forecourt.

Only if you sell it the moment you drive it off the forecourt.

To me car ownership has to be seen as an ongoing expense, whether you lease something shiny or spend your weekends trawling scrapyard and welding. Or owt betwixt. 

Me too.

It's like "depreciation" on guitars. Buy for £1000 and 3 years later sell for £600.

If I didn't get £400 worth of use / enjoyment out of that guitar in 3 years then that's my fault.

That's £11.12 per month for that 3 years to get to play a £1000 guitar. Sounds like a great deal to me.

munckee

I lease a new car with my work car allowance, it’s £40k ish new but only costs my allowance so I see it as free. 

The car we own is a battered corsa that we could get cheapish insurance for my 17 year old daughter. 

I have three guitars and amp all worth more!

m_c

I always find status/money quite interesting.

I've done work for a multi-millionaire, but you would never know it. His sole luxury is he has a 911. He always wanted to own a Porsche, so he bought one. His daily driver is an older Volvo.
He does stay in a big house in it's own grounds, but it's not excessively big, and he bought it as a pretty much derelict set of buildings.

His neighbour is similar, albeit a lot more well known (former CFO of one of the large banks that got bailed out), but is very similar. If you never knew who he was, or his background, you would just think they were average joes. No flashy cars, or flashy clothes.


Which reflects what a couple people I know who've worked in banks say.
They'll deal with millionaires in jeans and a t-shirt, yet people with maxxed out credit cards desperate for more credit dressed in the lates designer gear.

fretmeister

m_c said:

I always find status/money quite interesting.

I've done work for a multi-millionaire, but you would never know it. His sole luxury is he has a 911. He always wanted to own a Porsche, so he bought one. His daily driver is an older Volvo.
He does stay in a big house in it's own grounds, but it's not excessively big, and he bought it as a pretty much derelict set of buildings.

His neighbour is similar, albeit a lot more well known (former CFO of one of the large banks that got bailed out), but is very similar. If you never knew who he was, or his background, you would just think they were average joes. No flashy cars, or flashy clothes.


Which reflects what a couple people I know who've worked in banks say.
They'll deal with millionaires in jeans and a t-shirt, yet people with maxxed out credit cards desperate for more credit dressed in the lates designer gear.

One of my friends is a partner at rather a large accountancy business. He's proper loaded.

When he's not in the office he dresses (an occasionally smells) like he's a roadie from about 1978. 

Haych

Not read all comments so I could be repeating what others have said, but here's my take on it.

The value of what somebody drives or the house that somebody lives in is probably not proportional to that person's wealth.  It is probably, in many - if not most cases, directly proportional to debt and credit limit.

I live in quite modest home in a not very salubrious part of town, although I make it out to be worse than it actually is.  My car is an 18 year old BMW which, although it's starting to show its age with an assortment of worrying noises, I have no plans to change.  In fairness it has given me very little trouble in the six years I've owned it and while the £1200 banger I owned before seemed a lot more modest, it cost me significantly more to keep running.

My current debt over and above my mortgage is £770.75, and I have the means to clear that should I choose to.  This month I have had a few unexpected expenses (mainly fees for music lessons for the lass) so I'm choosing to keep the cash in the bank so I don't have to use my credit card and accumulate more debt.  The debt ^ I have is interest free so I'm not overly worried about it accumulating interest.

But that's just me.  I don't like being in large amounts of unnecessary debt, I have noticed that others seem not to have an aversion to it and just accept juggling and managing debt as a part of life.

Others seem to enjoy showing off their means of credit with fancy cars and exotic holidays.  I have particularly noticed an increase in young people - no older than very early 20s - driving around in expensive and fast cars I can only dream of owning.

I conclude that they are either driving daddy's car, but given the mods on the cars I doubt that, or are still living at home with mummy and daddy and have decided to open large loan accounts for nice cars because they have the credit and they can technically afford it.

Of course, in a couple of years when they want to move out and find a place of their own they will find out that being saddled with £400 car payments per month, plus insurance and running costs, is a bit of a bugger.

My own personal view is that we have been conditioned to think this is normal and that owning the best luxury items one can obtain within their credit limit is perfectly acceptable.  It drives want and drives profit for creditors, manufacturers and suppliers of said luxury items.

School was the starting place, I recall being mocked for wearing cheap Hi-Tec trainers and not Adidas or Nike, not that I cared.  Many of the other kids did and it wasn't uncommon for kids at school to be walking around in £80 trainers (and this was in 1990ish) and the competition was fierce for other kids to keep up.

Thankfully, school uniform policy now is such that this kind of brand shaming can't happen on the same level.  I sincerely hope school kids in their early teens are not subject to the same brand pressure.

I do like nice things and when I can afford it will splash out on the best I can afford.  I don't, however, feel it is necessary in any way to show off my "wealth" (not that I really have any) or means of credit with outwardly fancy things.  

Blueingreen

fretmeister said:

m_c said:

I always find status/money quite interesting.

I've done work for a multi-millionaire, but you would never know it. His sole luxury is he has a 911. He always wanted to own a Porsche, so he bought one. His daily driver is an older Volvo.
He does stay in a big house in it's own grounds, but it's not excessively big, and he bought it as a pretty much derelict set of buildings.

His neighbour is similar, albeit a lot more well known (former CFO of one of the large banks that got bailed out), but is very similar. If you never knew who he was, or his background, you would just think they were average joes. No flashy cars, or flashy clothes.


Which reflects what a couple people I know who've worked in banks say.
They'll deal with millionaires in jeans and a t-shirt, yet people with maxxed out credit cards desperate for more credit dressed in the lates designer gear.

One of my friends is a partner at rather a large accountancy business. He's proper loaded.

When he's not in the office he dresses (an occasionally smells) like he's a roadie from about 1978. 

You do get the opposite.  My job brought me into contact with a lot of wealthy folk.  While some lived unpretentiously, I was also very familiar with the phenomenon of people who earned 6 figure salaries - and the first number not necessarily a 1 - who were in trouble if a glitch held up payment of their salary for a couple of days. At first I struggled to believe it - what, you're earning a quarter of a million a year and you're panicking and kicking up a fuss because your salary is going to come through on Monday instead of Friday?   But eventually  came across that kind of thing enough times to realise that's just how some people live.  Even though they're earning megabucks, every £ that comes in is going straight out again.

bertie

munckee said:

I lease a new car with my work car allowance, it’s £40k ish new but only costs my allowance so I see it as free. 

classic error, if you're being "paid" an amount of £ to "provide a car"  as a benefit you'll be taxed on your allowance as additional income  (BIK)-  been there got (had) the proverbial, so while you're driving something "nice" you probably couldnt afford otherwise,  its not truly free. 

I bought my last company car  - which paid for "itself" in 2 years (after tax of course)  and Im left with an asset of (now) about £8k had I leased - after 3 or 4 years,  Id have driven a nicer car, but  id have fuck all

DrCornelius

Blueingreen said:

You do get the opposite.  My job brought me into contact with a lot of wealthy folk.  While some lived unpretentiously, I was also very familiar with the phenomenon of people who earned 6 figure salaries - and the first number not necessarily a 1 - who were in trouble if a glitch held up payment of their salary for a couple of days. At first I struggled to believe it - what, you're earning a quarter of a million a year and you're panicking and kicking up a fuss because your salary is going to come through on Monday instead of Friday?   But eventually  came across that kind of thing enough times to realise that's just how some people live.  Even though they're earning megabucks, every £ that comes in is going straight out again.

Apropos of nothing really but when I worked 'in the city', I was a very average money broker at Cantor Fitzgerald.  To use football as an analogy, I was an anonymous defensive midfielder at a lower tier championship club before the big wages came in.

It meant though that I worked with blokes all round me earning many multiples of my own salary, in some cases into 6 figures (and this was in the 90s).   I remember one bloke (and he was a lovely fella) crying into his beer one night as his desk was being taken over by another firm.  He said he was going to have to really tighten his belt and probably sell some stuff to make ends meet.

After a few more beers I asked him his plans.... turns out his basic salary was being cut from £500,000 pa to £350,000 pa (he would still get bonuses though).  He said he would be selling his flat at Gleneagles, his beach place in Cornwall and maybe his 3rd car (Porche) too - things were that bad !

He really was lost in a world of money and the culture of spending it - his family were very normal and he grew up in a council place in Essex but started earning big money at a young age and I think on reflection he lived in a absolute bubble.