Gtr vs Vln (BBC)

Phil_aka_Pip

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29218177

I think it is easy to produce acceptable noises with a guitar within a short time of starting to play it. This is not true of violins. The curve from beginner to mastery is a different shape, the steep bits are in different places. But I agree with JE, the height from bottom to top of curve is no different.

Anyone else have any other thoughts?

CabbageCat

Yeah, I agree. I think that most instruments have a similar distance from beginner to master. Some are really easy to get a nice sound out of straight away - e.g. piano - and some take a while to get a sound out at all - e.g. flute. As a result some are better for kids because their level of interest can be kept for longer.

Of course, this isn't true for all instruments. Give a bass to any idiot with more than three fingers and the ability to make tea and they'll be band-ready by lunchtime.

guitarfishbay

If the bassist can merely turn up and operate the dominos online ordering system they're band ready.

Hootsmon

one word....Adam Clayton

frankus

At aged 9 I was told by my Dad: The guitar, easy to play, impossible to master. That's poorly put, I never want to stop learning about making music on the guitar.

I think people have a bad take on what mastery is. To my mind it's the process of self control while acquiring, and the reason I value that view is who the hell wants to arrive? There's always more to learn. If you don't enjoy leanring you'll be asking "are we nearly there yet?" and when you get there, then what? complacency.

Another reason I think people don't get mastery is, the black belt grading involves a 2000 word essay on what a black belt is... yet if I say I do Karate, I get asked "what belt are you?" .. "blue" .. "oh" [confusion] because the black belt is easier to understand? Funny why get people who've been studying for a minimum of 3 years to write an essay on it if it's common knowledge.

Finally, it's apples and oranges, violin is a matrix of perfect fourths without frets, so knowledge of pitch is needed.. whereas a guitar can be tuned countless nonsensicle ways - the two are taught in schools but few people learn guitar in the formal style - so the learning curve for guitar will vary wildly.

Now a mastery curve is always the same



and why you get a sense of something around anyone who dedicates themselves to something for a long period of time.

ICBM

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I think it is easy to produce acceptable noises with a guitar within a short time of starting to play it. This is not true of violins.

I used to think that, until my kids started learning instruments. Despite my best intentions, they have shown no interest in guitar at all and when occasionally persuaded to pick one up, don't produce anything very musical sounding.

But when they had instrument aptitude testing at school, they picked violin and viola - and made extremely fast progress from nothing to being able to produce musical sounds. Neither of them has ever made the typical 'strangled cat noises' to any great degree, even when they were beginners. I'm not saying they are virtuosos, but they were both much better at it than I would have expected for a supposedly 'difficult' instrument, very quickly. I have no idea why.

So what this shows is that aptitude for instruments is a very individual thing, and that the school assessors know what they're doing.

hootsmon said:

one word....Adam Clayton

But being a bassist, he can probably count . At least to four...

guitarfishbay

ICBM;353869" said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:



I think it is easy to produce acceptable noises with a guitar within a short time of starting to play it. This is not true of violins.










I used to think that, until my kids started learning instruments. Despite my best intentions, they have shown no interest in guitar at all and when occasionally persuaded to pick one up, don't produce anything very musical sounding.



But when they had instrument aptitude testing at school, they picked violin and viola - and made extremely fast progress from nothing to being able to produce musical sounds. Neither of them has ever made the typical 'strangled cat noises' to any great degree, even when they were beginners. I'm not saying they are virtuosos, but they were both much better at it than I would have expected for a supposedly 'difficult' instrument, very quickly. I have no idea why.



So what this shows is that aptitude for instruments is a very individual thing, and that the school assessors know what they're doing.






hootsmon said:

one word....Adam Clayton





But being a bassist, he can probably count . At least to four...

Vertigo must be a challenge..

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

Vertigo must be a challenge..

No, it's Bono who's up on the high horse.

guitarfishbay

Face palm/groan in uno, dos, tres, catorce!

bob21

I'd agree with the suggestion that violin is initially harder, but that at the top level it's very similar. I'm fairly qualified to say as such, I'm a degree level guitar student, and have played Violin also for 14 years. 

Much of the issue with Violins is pitching notes - you have to be able to play a note, listen to whether it is in tune or not, and then modify your finger position, very quickly. I was lucky in that I had this skill very quickly, very early on, but some people take a long time to develop it (or some never do). Other than that, most of the skills required are similar; two hand coordination, physically making shapes on the finger/fretboard, exerting enough pressure with the left hand. 

The other main difference is the bow. It's not hard to make a bow work in the first place, but to move from simply making it work to producing great tone and articulation is a big step, and I think probably much harder than most 'average' RH technique as a guitarist. Again, when we start getting towards the mastery stage, and compare it to someone like Guthrie sweeping, tapping and all sorts at 150bpm with brilliant tone, if there is a gap at all, it's much more debatable..

VimFuego

 

bob21 said:

I'd agree with the suggestion that violin is initially harder, but that at the top level it's very similar. I'm fairly qualified to say as such, I'm a degree level guitar student, and have played Violin also for 14 years. 

Much of the issue with Violins is pitching notes - you have to be able to play a note, listen to whether it is in tune or not, and then modify your finger position, very quickly. I was lucky in that I had this skill very quickly, very early on, but some people take a long time to develop it (or some never do). Other than that, most of the skills required are similar; two hand coordination, physically making shapes on the finger/fretboard, exerting enough pressure with the left hand. 

The other main difference is the bow. It's not hard to make a bow work in the first place, but to move from simply making it work to producing great tone and articulation is a big step, and I think probably much harder than most 'average' RH technique as a guitarist. Again, when we start getting towards the mastery stage, and compare it to someone like Guthrie sweeping, tapping and all sorts at 150bpm with brilliant tone, if there is a gap at all, it's much more debatable..

 wish that wasn't true, I'd love to play the fiddle.

bob21

well try it anyway! fiddle technique is very different to classical violin technique; and less emphasis is placed on 'good' technique in comparison to personal technique..

Phil_aka_Pip

I played violin from the age of 9 until 13, getting as far as Grade 4. Then I switched to teaching myself to play guitar. One of the smartest moves I've made in life.

johnnyurq

Pretty much the same for me @Phil_aka_Pip and I don't regret it. Couldn't tease a tune out of one if my life depended on it nowadays.

Far too much violins in the world today!

frankus

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I played violin from the age of 9 until 13, getting as far as Grade 4. Then I switched to teaching myself to play guitar. One of the smartest moves I've made in life.

so I was wrong - kudos, I started on guitar aged 7 or 8 and with pressure at home to be awesome I gave up when starting secondary school...

My younger brother played violin, the thing is with violin it gets pushed over other instruments like the viola which is just as cool in my books.

ICBM

frankus said:

My younger brother played violin, the thing is with violin it gets pushed over other instruments like the viola which is just as cool in my books.

That's true. My elder daughter plays viola - started on that, never played violin - and it's lucky that she does and is good, or the high school orchestra wouldn't have a viola player. (Out of roughly 800 pupils.)

Phil_aka_Pip

all that flashy stuff that Antonio Vivaldi wrote for violins ... I'd like to be able to do that on guitar. I'd also like to hear Malmsteen doing it, as I'm sure he has the ability, but without adding stuff - just playing what Tony Viv wrote.

frankus

Who was the Shredder in the 80s who was just playing Paganini?

DLM

Phil_aka_Pip said:

all that flashy stuff that Antonio Vivaldi wrote for violins ... I'd like to be able to do that on guitar. I'd also like to hear Malmsteen doing it, as I'm sure he has the ability, but without adding stuff - just playing what Tony Viv wrote.

Try Patrick Rondat – on his Amphibia album he played the violin solo from Summer. Popular YouTuber "Tina S" covered his version, too.

DLM

frankus;355191" said:

Who was the Shredder in the 80s who was just playing Paganini?

There have been so many... Do you mean Joe Stump? German Schauss has done it all, but that was more recently. I've heard Elliot Fisk do awsome verisons of the Caprices on the classical guitar.

Phil_aka_Pip

Uli Jon Roth did a very violin-esque version of The 4 Seasons. His guitar sounded too politely like a violin, with Malmsteen you'd have known it was a Strat into a hot-rodded Marshall.

@DLM will google Patrick Rondat, fanx