Johnny Squire... and my secret confession.

darthed1981

mrkb said:

The first album was the weaker one, it’s Second Coming that’s the masterpiece.

@mrkb - well that should stimulate a bit of discussion

RocknRollDave

mrkb said:

The first album was the weaker one, it’s Second Coming that’s the masterpiece.

I’m undecided. In fact, they’re so different that it’s like two different bands.

 I like them both, but for different reasons.
 I would like to hear the first album with a different production….I know it would probably lose as much as it would gain, but still.

darthed1981

RocknRollDave said:
 I would like to hear the first album with a different production….

The 20th anniversary remaster was quite effective, "Made of Stone" hasn't got the "recorded behind a shower curtain" thing that it did on early CD versions at least.

As for the two albums...

The first one is the album that the "Stone Roses" did, great crossover between "shoegaze" and 90s indie, great indie rock songs from beginning to end.

The "Second Coming" is for the most part an entirely different band, with the same name, doing a quite self-indulgent tribute to Led Zep and other riff heavy 70s rock.  Everything on it is about three minutes too long, but it doesn't mean it isn't bluddy good in places, and now the "disappointment" of it's time has worn off, it's at the very least 70 minutes of one of the great guitarists.

darthed1981

...Just put Second Coming on, I'd gorgotten it's nearly five sodding minutes of funny noises before the songs actually start

RocknRollDave

darthed1981 said:

...Just put Second Coming on, I'd gorgotten it's nearly five sodding minutes of funny noises before the songs actually start

Oh yeah, that DEFINITELY should have been chopped off into a separate track so it could easily be skipped!

shugz

Squire is one of the very best. I'm influenced both musically and by his artworks.

For me the Roses as a band are a little overrated but the individual musicians, quite underrated, Squire and Reni in particular.

DIY is a great record that suffered not being a Stone Roses record. At the time there was SO much hype on it. I was at their (The Seahorses) second gig in a small club in Greenock (nr Glasgow, West of Scotland) and saw a big guitar hero of mine play his 3 pickup Custom about 10ft away. A huge impression left, plus they kicked the arse right out of Love Is The Law and no one knew it!

I think in terms of layering and overall work the first album is probably up there. Not too little, not too much. Second Coming was the geetar album though and for me untouchable even if it wasn't for the baggy jeans majority. Daybreak is their best for me - that has so much time and groove other acts in that genre could never get in a million years.

In terms of albums, always thought they really stood at 4 albums but only 2 being released. There should have been one before the first (aka Garage Flowers), the official first, then an album in between that and The SC (stuff along the lines of Somethings Burning) then The SC.

Don't be sad it's over, be grateful it ever happened at all eh?

H

munckee

mrkb said:

The first album was the weaker one, it’s Second Coming that’s the masterpiece.

You need to stop drinking in the morning mate,   Second coming very good album, not a patch on the first or turns into stone even. 

mrkb

munckee said:

mrkb said:

The first album was the weaker one, it’s Second Coming that’s the masterpiece.

You need to stop drinking in the morning mate,   Second coming very good album, not a patch on the first or turns into stone even. 

Im a guitarist not a druggie so first album is too slow - "sugar spun sister" and "shoot you down", - slow and boring, "Dont stop" - play the last song backward cop out, "Elizabeth my dear" - crap filler.

Where as second album has great melodic texture and awesome guitar riffs. 

munckee

mrkb said:

munckee said:

mrkb said:

The first album was the weaker one, it’s Second Coming that’s the masterpiece.

You need to stop drinking in the morning mate,   Second coming very good album, not a patch on the first or turns into stone even. 

Im a guitarist not a druggie so first album is too slow - "sugar spun sister" and "shoot you down", - slow and boring, "Dont stop" - play the last song backward cop out, "Elizabeth my dear" - crap filler.

Where as second album has great melodic texture and awesome guitar riffs. 

But I wanna be adored, she bangs the drums, waterfall, this is the one, made of stone and I am the resurrection about as good a collection of songs on any album ever. 

darthed1981

I actually listened to both roses albums the last couple of days.

Stone Roses is superior to me (no drugs, a few fruit ciders) but Second Coming sure has its moments.

Emiel

I've always liked the Seahorses album.Weirdly enough my favourite tracks are actually the ones NOT written by John. I once heard the demos for the aborted second album and I get it why they binned it, it was simply not good enough. I saw the reformed Stone Roses at their first European gig in Amsterdam (where most of the crowd consisted of drunk Englishmen) and enjoyed seeing John playing live again. Really he comes out every now and then again.

bbill335

there's a couple of good tracks on both SR albums but they never fully delivered on the promise of fools' gold really. first album has that dreadful eighties sounding production which i feel was probably a bit naff and old fashioned even when it came out. 

Clecko

darthed1981 said:

I genuinely feel sorry for long-term Roses fans, you go from the masterpiece first album, OK Brown can't fucking sing, but you had those songs and JS on stage, plus no flies at all on Mani and Reni.

You can take or leave everything since (though I know a lot of good stuff on SC and I love the Seahorses, Brown has done a few good solo tracks)...

But live Squire has basically retired, and Brown now does Karaoke... if you have been a fan for 35 years you deserve better.

I was a fan of them from the beginning - 34 years ago, incredibly - as were loads of my mates. I was too young to hear the Byrds and other influences when I first got into the debut, but by the time Second Coming finally released I definitely knew Jimmy Page would raise an eyebrow when he heard it. 

When they released Love Spreads, ahead of the album dropping, I remember seeing it described as 'John Squire's first solo single' (in the NME?) and I think that felt like the saddest thing about the album, compounded by Reni then leaving and being replaced for the tour.

Do It Yourself was fun in parts, but definitely an anticlimax for me and felt less like a band and more a vanity project. I did enjoy his first actual solo album though. I wasn't as put off by his singing as some were and thought there was some great songwriting and beautiful, understated playing on it. 

But don't feel sorry for us long-term Roses fans. Their positive impact on my life was almost overwhelming. They made me love music. And don't forget it wasn't just about the albums; singles and B-sides like Fool's Gold, What the World is Waiting For, One Love, Standing Here etc made a refreshing change from that 80s/90s trend of 'release and album, then release virtually everything on it as a single'. They soundtracked my youth. Amazing. 

DannyP

darthed1981 said:

I genuinely feel sorry for long-term Roses fans, you go from the masterpiece first album, OK Brown can't fucking sing, but you had those songs and JS on stage, plus no flies at all on Mani and Reni.

You can take or leave everything since (though I know a lot of good stuff on SC and I love the Seahorses, Brown has done a few good solo tracks)...

But live Squire has basically retired, and Brown now does Karaoke... if you have been a fan for 35 years you deserve better.

@darthed1981 Wait 'til you hear about a band called Guns 'n' Roses, then!

DannyP

I guess a guitar forum will always prefer Second Coming.

Someone will be along with that clip from Shawn Of The Dead in a minute......

darthed1981

DannyP said:

darthed1981 said:

I genuinely feel sorry for long-term Roses fans, you go from the masterpiece first album, OK Brown can't fucking sing, but you had those songs and JS on stage, plus no flies at all on Mani and Reni.

You can take or leave everything since (though I know a lot of good stuff on SC and I love the Seahorses, Brown has done a few good solo tracks)...

But live Squire has basically retired, and Brown now does Karaoke... if you have been a fan for 35 years you deserve better.

@darthed1981 Wait 'til you hear about a band called Guns 'n' Roses, then!

They're headlining Saturday at Glasto!  

I assume that variation-on-a-d riff will bring ye old house down...

Offset

The Stone Roses first album was and is brilliant.  Such a classic I remember where I bought it and when (Tower, Ken High Street, 1989).  I have a feeling I bought Lenny Kravitz's 'Let Love Rule' at the same time :-)

guitartango

I like both albums, the first one is more "baggy" and poppy in a 1960's grove, where the 2nd album is more Rocky. If i had to choose then the first album wins hands down

For long widdly guitar solo's then the second one may be the guitarist choice. 

Rave on ! 

CMW335

On a side note I bought the guitar in my Avatar recently which once belonged to Chris Helme. What an absolute gentleman he is, he did a zoom call with me to have a chat and share some stories about the guitar and also put me on the guestlist for his gig with Dodgy and The Supernaturals where I got to meet him in person too.

His vocal is incredible too!!

Danny1969

I love the Sea Horses and think some of the songs are far better crafted than the SR's. Blinded by the sun is a superb piece of work and an eye opener in another way to play the guitar. I hadn't really heard anyone play lead along with the verse lyrics in quite the same way. That really influenced me.  
I know I'm supposed to worship Johnny Marr indie guitar hero wise but I much prefer JS, he has a lovely fluid feel and just sounds more harmonically interesting to me. Morrissey was the genius of The Smith's to me although I'm not a fan of him as a person.  
SR album wise I prefer the first album purely because the songs are so strong. It's a strangle album production wise, coming out of the late eighties into the unknown  ... oddly enough the over egged reverb on the lead vocal is kinda back in fashion again with the likes of Tame Impala but it was odd at the time. 

I get to play Love is the law, Made of stone, IATR now and then and always admire the parts as I play them because they are superbly crafted parts.