Advice please.........2x12 cab ..not getting sound I want

nero1701

I've a pair of Neo creambacks 16 ohms,

Happy to let you borrow them on a return postage...or buy them if you like them.

Power_Freak

Dave_Mc said:

Power_Freak said:

Dominic said:

Gents,
Somebody (not here) has offered me a pair of Alnico Red Fangs .......I know they are a great speaker and have had one in a Vox AC15 and loved it BUT would they be a good choice for a Soldano slo30 Marshall type sound ?
What will they sound like ?

Speaking in generalities:
Eminence are very sensitive speakers (may be a plus or a minus depending on your view) - typically very midfocussed (at least there's a bass and treble roll-off in most eminences). This gives them a very "punchy" sort of sound that cuts through a mix really well, typically at the expense of "complexity" - I think this is a big reason why eminences are so popular, in a shoot-out loud, punchy and mids tend to sound "best".

Are they actually that efficient, though? I know they're rated as if they are, but to my ears they're nowhere near as efficient as their rating would suggest.  EDIT: LOL I didn't mean that to sound so aggressive, sorry!  I also agree with you (and @ICBM ) about mixing- there are a couple of known killer combinations which sound excellent, but outside of that it's a bit of a dark art as you said. If you already have the speakers it's a shot to nothing to try combinations, but if you don't it's pretty much a crapshoot... and very amp-dependent as @ICBM said. And great points by @Modulus_Amps too.

(I agree about their voicing, though, at least for most of their speakers... they have a funny lower midrange thing going on, at least most of the ones I've tried.)

I guess it depends on the eminence in question and what you compare them to - but in general they are very efficient. Or at least that's the "house style", they don't have a particularly "wide" frequency response (cut off treble a lot, cut off a little bit of bass - which makes them appear "middy"), they're efficient, and relatively compressed - this generally makes them more favourable in A/B testing if you're not careful (louder and middier tends to win in those sorts of things). As with most generalizations you can find particular examples that don't fit this style exactly, but their construction method pushes them towards that way compared to other brands.

They do rate sensitivity differently to celestion though, I can't remember all the details exactly but it's something like a closed back vs open back sort of deal - from memory it equates to around 1-2db "overstating" of eminence vs celestion (but that is a REAL memory test as I read about that years ago, happy to be proved wrong).

My "problem" with mixing speakers is less to do with the "killer" combinations - it's more to do with: take that killer combination and put it in a different cabinet (or with a different amp) and it can sound like crummy. I don't have the patience to find a pairing that works in each situation, it's hard enough finding 1 speaker that works for me!

Power_Freak

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

It's also the answer to the question: "how did I get this slipped disc?"

Dave_Mc

Power_Freak said:

(a) I guess it depends on the eminence in question and what you compare them to - but in general they are very efficient. Or at least that's the "house style", they don't have a particularly "wide" frequency response (cut off treble a lot, cut off a little bit of bass - which makes them appear "middy"), they're efficient, and relatively compressed - this generally makes them more favourable in A/B testing if you're not careful (louder and middier tends to win in those sorts of things). As with most generalizations you can find particular examples that don't fit this style exactly, but their construction method pushes them towards that way compared to other brands.

They do rate sensitivity differently to celestion though, I can't remember all the details exactly but it's something like a closed back vs open back sort of deal - from memory it equates to around 1-2db "overstating" of eminence vs celestion (but that is a REAL memory test as I read about that years ago, happy to be proved wrong).

(b) My "problem" with mixing speakers is less to do with the "killer" combinations - it's more to do with: take that killer combination and put it in a different cabinet (or with a different amp) and it can sound like crummy. I don't have the patience to find a pairing that works in each situation, it's hard enough finding 1 speaker that works for me!

(a) Oh yes I see what you mean- sort of like what I'd call a "more modern" tonality, which may well stem from a "more modern" construction, as you said. I'd agree with you there- I haven't tried anywhere near all of them, but I have tried a lot, and most of them sound a bit more modern than the more classic speakers which they're supposed to be "like", to my ears at least. And they do seem to have a "sound", as well. There are a few exceptions which don't do this just as much, but most of the ones I've tried do.

I also think most of them don't sound as loud as their ratings either- I agree with you about how they rate them, I don't think there's anything necessarily nefarious going on, it's just a different way to do it (I think their power ratings are similar in that respect- also a bit optimistic)- but if you're not aware of it, it can lead you astray. I've seen a lot of people on online forums being recommended an Eminence equivalent instead of, say, the Celestion version because "the Eminence is 3dB" louder, and I think to myself, "Y'know, they're probably the exact same volume. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised the Celestion is louder!" It's especially important if the person already has the Celestion, and the problem is that it's not loud enough!

(b) LOL yeah I know what you mean

@Dominic I tried my Jet City with my Red Fangs. Bunch of caveats, first- home volume (I only play at home); it's not the exact same amp you have; they weren't in the same cab; the RFs were 16 ohm versus 4 ohm for the V12s; personal preference etc. plays a big part; I don't really mind fizz and compression etc...

I'm not sure.  I tried them (in my open-backed 2x12 Genz Benz combo) against my Eminence V12s (in a closed-backed Jet City 2x12) and they sounded quite a bit crunchier and more vintage than the V12s. They had more of that Celestion crunchy upper mids and dirty high-end fizz going on. Not sure I'd say less compressed, or at least enough less compressed. It's really up to you- if you can get them second-hand and not lose anything if you sell them on, they might be worth a try. To be honest if you've tried them yourself before you probably know better than I will, lol...

(I do have V30s and Greenbacks but they're not currently in a cab and I didn't have time to try that.)

ICBM

I agree with the general difference between Eminence and Celestion ratings - Eminence seem about 1-3dB overstated in sensitivity compared to Celestion (depending on the model), and about 50% overstated in power rating - Celestion are actually the outlier there, compared to most other manufacturers. I’ve seen more blown Eminences where I wouldn’t have expected it from the power of the amp than Celestions, although Eminence are far from the most fragile.

Most Eminences do seem to have a tighter, punchier but more midrangy tone too - in general I prefer Celestions for guitar, but Eminences for bass - although there are exceptions. I would avoid mixing the two brands - or any two brands, in fact - even if you’re mixing speakers, I think each manufacturer has a sort of ‘house tone’, much like pickup makers do, and different ones don’t usually work well together. Just my experience though, it’s all personal taste really.

Dominic

Wow, there is so much good advice/suggestion here that I'm trying to take it all in.
This weekend I'm going to check the wiring /phase issue .....although I'm sure it's correct
I'm inclined to agree with the logic of NOT mixing speakers .....it's a bit like getting the bloke who helps out behind the bar at the Legion on sunday to mix a serious cocktail or the perfect Negroni ; I'm not an audio mixologist.
  I don't have the experience or breadth of speaker knowledge to define difference......the difficult thing with this is swapping the speakers around and doing comparisons.......by the time I've opened a cab ,let alone swapped a speaker I've lost the tone in my head of the previous one completely .......so zero comparable experience.
I don't really know the differences either ;
The Greenback sounds softer than the V30 and less defined but it's darker and also sweeter
the V30 seems punchy but a bit aggressive in a way that I don't like....it's hard and doesn't spread the sound
In fact neither seem to do that
I have a single Creamback in a Voxy combo that just seems to spread and fill the room in a 3 dimensional way but is that the amp or the speaker ?
What are the notable differences between Green and Creambacks ?
What are the differences between open back and closed back cabs ?
I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....is that right ?
I also have a Scumback Scumnico in a 1x12 but that sounds very harsh ,unlike a Celstion Blue
I don't really know what I'm doing tbh
@nero1701......that's a great offer ,thankyou so much I; I may take you up on that if concensus is that it's the right direction
How much and what difference does series /parrallel wiring make to a 2x12 cabinet other than correct resistance ?

MikeP

Is it closed back? Did you try just taking one out and leaving the hole? Cost you nothing and it'll probably sound better...

Dominic

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard .  And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Sure, but you've got to be crushingly loud to push the EV hard I assume

Power_Freak

Dominic said:

 a.) I don't have the experience or breadth of speaker knowledge to define difference......the difficult thing with this is swapping the speakers around and doing comparisons.......by the time I've opened a cab ,let alone swapped a speaker I've lost the tone in my head of the previous one completely .......so zero comparable experience.


b.) I don't really know the differences either ;
The Greenback sounds softer than the V30 and less defined but it's darker and also sweeter
the V30 seems punchy but a bit aggressive in a way that I don't like....it's hard and doesn't spread the sound
In fact neither seem to do that


c.) I have a single Creamback in a Voxy combo that just seems to spread and fill the room in a 3 dimensional way but is that the amp or the speaker ?


d.) What are the notable differences between Green and Creambacks ?


e.) What are the differences between open back and closed back cabs ?


f.) I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....is that right ?

g.) How much and what difference does series /parrallel wiring make to a 2x12 cabinet other than correct resistance ?

a.) Unlike say a 2 PAFs which have subtle differences where you'd want to A/B - speakers are generally pretty different (assuming you're not comparing a greenback to a greenback clone, going from one "type" to another) you'll likely notice a different immediately

b.) V30s tend to cut through a mix really well - so they're good when you pile on the gain (or go scoopy) because it'll cut through in a band/recorded. If that's important to you it's a big plus. Metal guys seem to love the v30 for that reason.

c.) Possibly both

d.) Creambacks have more of a top end roll off, sound "smoother", more "refined" or "classy". Greenbacks are a little raw-er and more aggressive typically. The difference in wattage can also come into play depending how loud you go.

e.) Closed back more "focussed" and "direct" sounding, often "tighter" or "bassier" and can be perceived as "louder" because the sound only comes out "in one direction" - arguably you get more "speaker sound" in a closed back. Open back tends to have softer bass, they also "spread" the sound - based on your desire to "fill the room" I reckon you're an open-backer tbh

f.) EVs have a "sound" - they're typically very hifi and can take whatever you throw at them without breaking up, especially in the lower register. You might argue that EVs don't have a "sound" of their own and you "get more of the amp sound" - I don't think that's true in reality, but I can understand when people describe them that way.

g.) I always go for parallel (or "series-parallel" in a 4) - for no other reason that if a speaker blows/dies you won't be left with an open circuit and so you might save a costly amp repair in the worst case scenario. In terms of "tone" I have no idea if it makes a big difference - a 16ohm and 8ohm of the "same" speaker can sound a little different, but there are more important things to worry about.

Power_Freak

Dominic said:

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard .  And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Sure, but you've got to be crushingly loud to push the EV hard I assume

Compared to other speakers - EVs probably sound the "most similar" at low volume vs high volume because they just don't break up

ICBM

Dominic said:

I don't really know what I'm doing tbh

Yes you do . Those observations are all pretty much on the mark, despite what you think is your limited experience.

Based on what you’ve said, I would replace the V30 with a Heritage G12H-30 55Hz - it’s a lot more open-sounding, less stiff and with clearer mids and more top-end sparkle.

This is a known great combination with the Greenback. If that doesn’t give you the right result but is a step in the right direction - I’m certain it will be - replace the Greenback with another Heritage.

The guitarist in my band has just been on exactly this journey and ended up there - he’s finally happy .

The difference between series and parallel is noticeable but fairly subtle compared to differences in the speakers. Personally, I would go with whichever makes swapping the speakers you have easier - if it’s two 16s in parallel, keep it like that. 

Dominic

^ Thankyou @ICBM for taking the time to think of a pragmatic approach........I will do that I think
I'm still also considering the Creambacks ....what difference will I notice if I do use them ?

viz

MikeP said:

Take one out and try each as a detuned setup? Save buying another speaker maybe.

Yep that’s whad I’d do. In fact it’s what I do anyway, permanently. I just have one hooked up They’re both physically there, but I unplugged the link between them. Then you can compare and contrast. Just remember to double the ohms. 

ICBM

Dominic said:

I'm still also considering the Creambacks ....what difference will I notice if I do use them ?

The Creambacks are both tighter and darker than their Greenback equivalents (G12M-65 = G12M-25, G12H-75 = G12H-30) so given your descriptions, I wouldn't choose them as they aren't necessary for the power handling you need.

Dominic

Thankyou

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

(a) I agree with the general difference between Eminence and Celestion ratings - Eminence seem about 1-3dB overstated in sensitivity compared to Celestion (depending on the model), and about 50% overstated in power rating - Celestion are actually the outlier there, compared to most other manufacturers. I’ve seen more blown Eminences where I wouldn’t have expected it from the power of the amp than Celestions, although Eminence are far from the most fragile.

(b) Most Eminences do seem to have a tighter, punchier but more midrangy tone too - in general I prefer Celestions for guitar, but Eminences for bass - although there are exceptions. I would avoid mixing the two brands - or any two brands, in fact - even if you’re mixing speakers, I think each manufacturer has a sort of ‘house tone’, much like pickup makers do, and different ones don’t usually work well together. Just my experience though, it’s all personal taste really.

(a) WGS might be even worse- I tried my ET65s again recently, just for the lulz, and they're supposedly 100dB (ok 99.45, I just checked!) and they were basically noticeably quieter than any other speaker I have, apart from the really low efficiency Jensens.

(b) I don't think I ever got as far as mixing brands... I probably thought it was a bad idea because of what you said!

Dominic said:

Wow, there is so much good advice/suggestion here that I'm trying to take it all in.
This weekend I'm going to check the wiring /phase issue .....although I'm sure it's correct
I'm inclined to agree with the logic of NOT mixing speakers .....it's a bit like getting the bloke who helps out behind the bar at the Legion on sunday to mix a serious cocktail or the perfect Negroni ; I'm not an audio mixologist.
  I don't have the experience or breadth of speaker knowledge to define difference......the difficult thing with this is swapping the speakers around and doing comparisons.......by the time I've opened a cab ,let alone swapped a speaker I've lost the tone in my head of the previous one completely .......so zero comparable experience.
I don't really know the differences either ;
The Greenback sounds softer than the V30 and less defined but it's darker and also sweeter
the V30 seems punchy but a bit aggressive in a way that I don't like....it's hard and doesn't spread the sound
In fact neither seem to do that
I have a single Creamback in a Voxy combo that just seems to spread and fill the room in a 3 dimensional way but is that the amp or the speaker ?
What are the notable differences between Green and Creambacks ?
What are the differences between open back and closed back cabs ?
I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....is that right ?
I also have a Scumback Scumnico in a 1x12 but that sounds very harsh ,unlike a Celstion Blue
I don't really know what I'm doing tbh
@nero1701......that's a great offer ,thankyou so much I; I may take you up on that if concensus is that it's the right direction
How much and what difference does series /parrallel wiring make to a 2x12 cabinet other than correct resistance ?

I think most everything else has been answered, plus like you, I don't have that much experience (I haven't got as far as trying creambacks or EVs)- but like @ICBM says, I think you're bang-on. I wouldn't say mixing speakers is that complicated, there are a few well-known combos that work which are the usual place to start if you're new to it (Greenback + G12H30, V30 + G12T75 etc.)- but if you don't want to that's ok too.

I wonder if the Vox combo sounded more 3D and like it filled the room because it was probably open-backed?

I'm not sure about the series-parallel thing. The only time I've been able to compare it it also changed the impedance which also could be affecting the tone.

hywelg

Dominic said:

I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....

In a 1x12 it maybe, in an oversized open back 2x12 it's full and balanced. It is a little direct or hard sounding but that's why the combo with a RF works well. The EV comes into it's own when pushed hard, the clarity and authority is remarkable. 

Dominic said:

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard .  And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Sure, but you've got to be crushingly loud to push the EV hard I assume

Not crushingly loud, rehearsal volume possibly. But when you do go to crushingly.loud you will be very pleased with how well it stands up. I have one abiding memory of how well the speaker cab worked, playing through a Suhr Riot into a loud clean amp, DrZ EZG, just breaking up, playing 'Slither'. Trouser flapping territory, absolutely wonderful.

However even at lower volumes it's a great speaker. 

Grunfeld

ICBM said:

Most Eminences do seem to have a tighter, punchier but more midrangy tone too - in general I prefer Celestions for guitar, but Eminences for bass - although there are exceptions. I would avoid mixing the two brands.... [lots of caveats]

The caveats are really significant aren't they?  In fact one of the things which I'm getting from this thread and which I guess we all understand is the variables are so variable.

For ages I've been gigging with a 1936 2x12 loaded with a Celestion and an Eminence and with three different amps it sounded brilliant -- for live I'm the only guitarist (which I love) and I look to sound there in the mix without doing it through sheer volume.  The combination of speakers I inherited when I got the cab was just perfect and tbh it was with heavy heart that I recently swapped them out for a pair of neo Celestions -- purely a weight consideration. 

@Dominic -- I dunno whereabout in London you are but you're more than welcome to try these on spec for a bit to see if they suit your cab and give you what you're looking for (or if anyone else is, they're here).

ICBM

Grunfeld said:

The caveats are really significant aren't they?  In fact one of the things which I'm getting from this thread and which I guess we all understand is the variables are so variable.

Yes, very much. That's just my experience with a lot of different speakers and a lot of different amps - almost all of which have not been deliberate choices, but whatever was to hand when replacing a blown speaker. When I have chosen, I've tried to get it right first go so I don't spend too much on experiments that don't work!

There can be some really surprising combinations that work - the most obvious is the V30 and G12T-75... logic would say that the V30 is much more sensitive and much middier, so it should totally dominate the mix and at best you may hear the buzzy top-end of the 75 - ie the worst of both worlds. But that's not what happens - somehow the 75 seems to suck out the overly shouty mid peak of the V30, add looser bottom end and sparkle at the top... and even more remarkably, it sounds quite balanced for volume. It works best as an 'x-pattern' in a 4x12" though, not so much side-by-side in a 2x12".

Grunfeld said:

For ages I've been gigging with a 1936 2x12 loaded with a Celestion and an Eminence and with three different amps it sounded brilliant -- for live I'm the only guitarist (which I love) and I look to sound there in the mix without doing it through sheer volume.  The combination of speakers I inherited when I got the cab was just perfect and tbh it was with heavy heart that I recently swapped them out for a pair of neo Celestions -- purely a weight consideration.

Try replacing one with an Eminence Li'l Texas neo - that's one of the exceptions to my preference for Celestions for guitar, it's a fantastic speaker. (In fact better than the Celestion I replaced with it.) I have a Neo Creamback too, but currently no simple way of testing them together properly, as the Creamback is 16-ohm and the Texas 8-ohm.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

There can be some really surprising combinations that work - the most obvious is the V30 and G12T-75... logic would say that the V30 is much more sensitive and much middier, so it should totally dominate the mix and at best you may hear the buzzy top-end of the 75 - ie the worst of both worlds. But that's not what happens - somehow the 75 seems to suck out the overly shouty mid peak of the V30, add looser bottom end and sparkle at the top... and even more remarkably, it sounds quite balanced for volume. It works best as an 'x-pattern' in a 4x12" though, not so much side-by-side in a 2x12".

I've only tried it in a 2x12- that might explain why I thought it was pretty good (and certainly better than I was expecting) rather than absolutely amazing!