The cab is more important than the amp.

Nerine

Provocative title, perhaps. 

I've been mulling this over a lot. 

I believe that people would perhaps be better off spending their money on cabs rather than amps. I see tons of people with stacks of Marshall flavoured heads, with a cab or two, for example, and i think "how pointless". The tonal variation there is close to zero. They'd all basically sound the same on a record or in a mix or whatever if the same cab was used and settings on the amps compensated slightly.

Let me caveat to begin. I think that's important and I'm sure a LOT of people will disagree. That's fine.

I'm not saying a Marshall is gonna sound exactly like a Fender through the same cab, I think that distinction will still exist regardless of cab. I think the four main food groups of amps all have their place - Fender, Marshall, Vox, Boogie. They all have their own thing going on and are different enough to always sound a bit different even through the same speakers. 

Although, conversely I will say that a Marshall set clean, with some more exaggerated EQ, and played through the the cabinet and speakers of a Twin Reverb (for example) could get very close to the Twin, though. Especially under mics. Swap that cabinet (plug the Marshall into a Greenback 4x12 instead of the Twin's speakers) and the difference is then HUGE. 

This post has the potential to get very long, so I'll try to make it as concise as possible with some observations.

Modellers - IR changes are more jarring than changing the amp. Amp changes can be mitigated mostly with EQ. Less so with IRs. The difference in frequency response between a 1x12 and a 4x12 is massive. EQ will not solve that easily.   

I have a Small Box combo. My bandmate has a Small Box head and 2x12. They don't sound like the same amp (they are). They sound wildly different because of the cab/speakers regardless if settings are close if not identical. 

A good amp will sound bad through a bad cab/speaker. A good cab/speaker will always improve an average amp.

I've overdubbed guitars using the same load and cabinets, but with different amps and have been able to get the parts sounding basically identical in the mix. Wouldn't happen/would be far more difficult to achieve with a different cab.

A cab/IR changes the frequency response of the sound far more than an amp swap. 

It's easier to make two amps sound similar through the same cab than one amp through two different cabs. 



There are only so many ways a guitar signal can be amplified/compressed/distorted/squarewave'd. Yes, there can be filtering and EQ in the signal path of the amp, too, but realistically, you're working with a fairly finite range of parameters. I think the filter at the end of the chain (the speaker) imparts a lot more influence over whatever may be going on in the amp. 

**I'll just note that "feel" and compression/stiffness/how the amp delivers it's power is still going to be unique, but that isn't something that's usually heard by the audience as such, that's probably more how the amp changes the feel of the strings under the fingers. **


I think it is possible to make 2 cabinets with the same speakers sound pretty similar especially if close micing, but swap the speakers as well, and it's going to be REALLY hard, even with the same amp. Conversely, give me a boost and an EQ pedal, and I can easily make a JCM 800 reissue sound like a Bogner Ecstasy/Friedman/whatever. That said, I understand the lineage between those amps, so perhaps that's an unfair/easy challenge. 


I'm not saying the amp has no effect. I'm saying a cabinet change will have a more drastic effect on your sound than a new amp might. (Especially if you're going to use the same cab...   )
 



Of course, you could argue that a speaker is just a filter/frequency response... A flexible Equaliser could "undo" that filter and impart another.... If you're listening directly to the source in the room, you don't really have that luxury, though.

Who knows... 


Perhaps the title should be: Cabs provide more variation to a sound than the amplifier.

Cirrus

Nerine said:

Provocative title, perhaps. 

Cirrus

In all seriousness...

People just decide for themselves how and where they want to focus on their rigs. You're right. Cabs make a big difference - if anyone's not had the experience of hearing a celestion 12" speaker removed from a cab, it's a worthwhile experiment that shows how much the cab shapes the low end.

But I don't think you can quantify it. If you mostly play heads, you're faced with cab choice as something you NEED to deal with. If you mostly play combos, the cab, the speakers and the amp kind of roll into one object and one choice. I think speakers are more of a focus for me. I also like having some constants; if a cab works for me for a project or a phase in my musical life, I'm inclined to stick with it and change other things to get variation.

In dense productions, slightly different cabs/speakers (different size 4x12s or whatever) with the same amp will do more to get L/R separation double tracking than the same cab with slightly different amps. I don't really care about stereo spread these days so recently I've just been using the combo I think sounds best for everything unless the part really calls out for a change.

ChrisCox1994

the player is more important than all of it 

but yeah, a good cab can transform a mediocre amp and a great amp can be hampered by a crappy cab.

I guess its like tyres on a car - you gotta have a good chassis to make use of the extra grip, but even a rubbish handling car with stick more with decent tyres.

Dodge

And equally the amp is more important that the guitar.

A great amp can make a crap guitar sound good.  A crap amp makes every guitar sound crap.

ICBM

The amp is more important than the cab.

You cannot make a Fender Twin sound like a Mesa Rectifier no matter what cab you put it through.

However, the cab is still more important at shaping the tone - rather than the overall type of sound - than most players give it credit for, and actually the *cab* is almost as important as the *speakers* too.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

The amp is more important than the cab.

You cannot make a Fender Twin sound like a Mesa Rectifier no matter what cab you put it through.

However, the cab is still more important at shaping the tone - rather than the overall type of sound - than most players give it credit for, and actually the *cab* is almost as important as the *speakers* too.

Yeah that

As always, it depends what you're comparing. If you're comparing two quite similar Marshalls, as @Nerine suggested in the opening post, then it's absolutely possible to get two very different cab/speaker combinations which could well make far more difference.

Dodge said:

And equally the amp is more important that the guitar.

A great amp can make a crap guitar sound good.  A crap amp makes every guitar sound crap.

Agreed to a certain extent, but again it depends on what you're comparing. If you're looking at some of the classic guitar models, it can be hard if not impossible to get that from a different amp or cabinet. It's pretty hard to get the in-between tone on a Strat from a Les Paul, for example. And that's a classic enough tone that some people probably need it.

Nerine

Should probably mention, when I say “cab” I’m including different speakers in that catch all, too. 

Boromedic

I think a couple of the Jim Lill videos demonstrate your point rather well also. Cabinets/Speakers/Pickups, for me anyway, make the biggest differences in sound/tone.

victorludorum

It's one of the things I like about software/modellers, the fact that you can switch cabs and change things dramatically.

JCA2550

Every part of the signal chain makes a difference. The way I see it, it's like the old fashioned game of Chinese Whispers.

An idea is formed and spoken,  it's heard and hopefully repeatedly to the next person and the next, until eventually it's relayed to who ever is listening.

Isn't  this the journey?

Brain, hands, strings, pickups, instrument, electronic pathway in the instrument, cable or wireless, fx, amp, cab, room, ears, brains.

It all has to start with something worth sending up the signal chain in the first place, then choices are made about how much to preserve the purity of the signal or how much you want to manipulate it. That said, I believe that the further along the chain the signal travels, the more of a deal breaker or deal maker that component plays a part.

The placement of the speaker cabinet in a room and acoustic properties of the room and everything in it are arguably  more effecting than anything else?

De_Batz

victorludorum said:

It's one of the things I like about software/modellers, the fact that you can switch cabs and change things dramatically.

Perversely for me it’s one thing I find really difficult about modelling tech. In my case we’re talking about the native modellers in garage band and logic for recording. I have really struggled to settle on cab, mic and mic placement when using simulations, partly because of a lack of foreknowledge of what things are going to sound like and partly due to option paralysis. It has the effect of preventing me playing, which is the opposite of what I want. So the dramatic change - on which I entirely agree - is a barrier in that situation. 

Somehow ‘in the room’ my ears seem to adapt to the wildly different sounds out of different cabs, although I’m not really experienced in micing…

Neilybob

I chuckled at this title but actually I recall taking my Orange Jim Root 2x12 to a jam and plugged into @Jonathangus amazing JMP 50 after it was plugged into his traditional cab and wow it made such a difference.  It actually sounded more modern. 

timmypix

The biggest hindrance is without something like a Two Notes Captor, cabs take up a lot of room, so if it's a choice between multiple heads and one cab or vice versa, most will naturally lean towards one cab.

ICBM

Neilybob said:

I chuckled at this title but actually I recall taking my Orange Jim Root 2x12 to a jam and plugged into @Jonathangus amazing JMP 50 after it was plugged into his traditional cab and wow it made such a difference.  It actually sounded more modern. 

But it didn't sound like a 5150, did it...

Cabs make a big difference to the tone, but they can't change the overall sound of the amp.

The biggest difference I can think of is something like putting a 5F1 Champ into a 1x12" cabinet, or running it through a 4x12" - it makes a huge difference to the tone, because the 8" speaker in the original combo so constricts the frequency range that removing that allows you to hear what the amp really sounds like, but even through a 4x12" it doesn't sound like (eg) a Marshall 2203 through the same cabinet.

Dave_Mc

Nerine said:

Should probably mention, when I say “cab” I’m including different speakers in that catch all, too. 

Yep I assumed you were.  

JCA2550 said:

It all has to start with something worth sending up the signal chain in the first place

Not when I'm playing it doesn't...

slacker

Every single thing in the signal chain is important but if you've not got the money you have to choose what to get first. 

Way back I always focused on the instrument and the amp came second or for a while was borrowed. Now I use non standard speakers with most of my amps.

Whilst the speakers are important some cabs are surprisingly good. The other guitarist in my band uses my matchless head as his lightning combo won't fit in a backpack for the train journey. We used a small room and took a cab with a asw kts70 in it. We swapped to the large room that had a very cheap marshall 8ohm cab looked like it was made of cardboard sounded wonderful.

Fiftyshadesofjay

I don’t agree that the cab is more important, there’s a lot more to it than that but it does make a massive difference, tone is the sum of a lot of parts.

In your examples I’d probably say it’s equally amp, cab and mic. If you’re looking at recording tones then moving the mic a few inches will drastically alter the tone, probably more than switching the amp or the cab. 

The construction of the cab definitely makes a difference as well. Classic Marshall tone with closed back, Fender with open etc.

I definitely think the sound of the cab absolutely doesn’t get enough credit. I get it’s practical but it kind of sucks sharing a cab on multi band bills etc as it’s a core component of someone’s sound.

Rowby1

So here’s an interesting thing I discovered recently. I have a 1x12 that Martin (MJW) built for me. It’s got feet on two sides so you can stand it on end (portrait) or on its side (landscape). In the same room, in the same spot it sounds like two different cabinets depending on which way it’s stood…..

ICBM

Rowby1 said:

So here’s an interesting thing I discovered recently. I have a 1x12 that Martin (MJW) built for me. It’s got feet on two sides so you can stand it on end (portrait) or on its side (landscape). In the same room, in the same spot it sounds like two different cabinets depending on which way it’s stood…..

Yes, because the acoustic coupling of the speaker to the floor is quite different, as well as the off-axis dispersion of different frequencies.

If you suspended it in mid-air at head height and stood directly in front of it, it would (or should!) make no difference which way round it is. (But no-one does that .)

Rowby1

ICBM said:

Rowby1 said:

So here’s an interesting thing I discovered recently. I have a 1x12 that Martin (MJW) built for me. It’s got feet on two sides so you can stand it on end (portrait) or on its side (landscape). In the same room, in the same spot it sounds like two different cabinets depending on which way it’s stood…..

Yes, because the acoustic coupling of the speaker to the floor is quite different, as well as the off-axis dispersion of different frequencies.

If you suspended it in mid-air at head height and stood directly in front of it, it would (or should!) make no difference which way round it is. (But no-one does that .)

Makes me wonder what a Fender Twin sounds like stood on its side.