How does a Guitarist play Bass?

CarbonCopy

Snags said:

To refresh my memory of the Black Velvet bass line I hit up Google.

And the very first video they linked ot is a demonstration of way people who don't know notation shouldn't be allowed to publish notation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AlBSh9AWA - whether you're a guitarist or a bassist, if you only know tab, only post tab.

What's wrong with the notation?

fretmeister

Stuckfast said:

Oh wait, Wiki says it was recorded using a sample of a fretless bass played on a synth. So there you go.

It's not a completely straight sample. There's a little sculpting going on too.

The sound has been the subject of bass forum discussions for many years!

Snags

CarbonCopy said:

Snags said:

To refresh my memory of the Black Velvet bass line I hit up Google.

And the very first video they linked ot is a demonstration of way people who don't know notation shouldn't be allowed to publish notation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AlBSh9AWA - whether you're a guitarist or a bassist, if you only know tab, only post tab.

What's wrong with the notation?

It's only taking account of the notes, not the timing. So basically, it's tab-as-notation.

If you were to give that notation to someone who can read, but didn't know the song, they would play all of the notes as quavers (eighth notes) making the whole thing smooth and evenly paced. The whole point of notation is to convey timing info as well. It would be more accurate as a dotted quaver and semi-quaver for each pair. Looking at the rhythm and not worrying about the notes (or the key, as the original is down-tuned to Eb IIRC):

As per the video notation shown as tab:

Count    ||  1  +  2  +  3  +  4  +  |
E string ||  0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--|

As per the song, shown as tab:

Count    ||  1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - |
E string ||  0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-|

Not sure if that helps or hinders, though!

fretmeister

Snags said:

CarbonCopy said:

Snags said:

To refresh my memory of the Black Velvet bass line I hit up Google.

And the very first video they linked ot is a demonstration of way people who don't know notation shouldn't be allowed to publish notation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AlBSh9AWA - whether you're a guitarist or a bassist, if you only know tab, only post tab.

What's wrong with the notation?

It's only taking account of the notes, not the timing. So basically, it's tab-as-notation.

If you were to give that notation to someone who can read, but didn't know the song, they would play all of the notes as quavers (eighth notes) making the whole thing smooth and evenly paced. The whole point of notation is to convey timing info as well. It would be more accurate as a dotted quaver and semi-quaver for each pair. Looking at the rhythm and not worrying about the notes (or the key, as the original is down-tuned to Eb IIRC):

As per the video notation shown as tab:

Count    ||  1  +  2  +  3  +  4  +  |
E string ||  0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--|

As per the song, shown as tab:

Count    ||  1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - |
E string ||  0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-|

Not sure if that helps or hinders, though!

Aye.

My jazz band currently has a dep on the drums - a metal drummer.

Trying to get him to swing is a nightmare. Still he makes up for it with rim-shotting every snare beat....  

Stuckfast

^ when it's swung like that in triplet feel throughout it would make more sense to notate it in 12/8 than 4/4.

Dave_Mc

pigface said:

Dave_Mc said:

I would also say that even if you don't get that good at bass, it's worth it to be able to hear the bass in songs (I never used to hear bass at all!) and understand better what all of the instruments are doing.

I've always been a guitarist and singer, but I've also always been able to hear the bass in a song and get how it drives the music. I remember telling one of my wives (I've had a few, consecutively) to listen to the bass to get the groove of a song, and she got it at once. I possess a bass but would not call myself a bass player. I can do root/5 at best.

LOL all I could really tell was that I didn't like the sound of those bands which didn't really have bass. I could tell something was happening when the bass was dropping out, and that was about it. I definitely remember when I used to play the drums that I could very much hear/feel the groove of the song (and that's what I used to decide on where to put the bass drum), and I've since (very belatedly!) realised that that was the bass... so maybe I could hear it after all, just I didn't really realise what I was hearing!

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

Oddly enough I play almost exclusively with my fingers on a guitar, but currently - for the band I’m in - almost exclusively with a pick for bass. There’s one song in the set which has a fingerstyle bass part. You need the pick to get a fast enough note attack, no matter what a lot of bass snobs think.

I play a lot of other bass with my fingers though, especially fretless which doesn’t really sound right with a pick - I have tried, just to see. Neither is right or wrong any more than it is on a guitar.

100% this - both are essential skills imo. Something like U2's New Year's Day just plain sounds wrong without pick attack, as do most Beatles tracks. But playing James Jamerson lines with a pick sounds horrible. 

Dave_Mc

stickyfiddle said:

ICBM said:

Oddly enough I play almost exclusively with my fingers on a guitar, but currently - for the band I’m in - almost exclusively with a pick for bass. There’s one song in the set which has a fingerstyle bass part. You need the pick to get a fast enough note attack, no matter what a lot of bass snobs think.

I play a lot of other bass with my fingers though, especially fretless which doesn’t really sound right with a pick - I have tried, just to see. Neither is right or wrong any more than it is on a guitar.

100% this - both are essential skills imo. Something like U2's New Year's Day just plain sounds wrong without pick attack, as do most Beatles tracks. But playing James Jamerson lines with a pick sounds horrible. 

Yeah definitely. To be clear- I mainly play with my fingers because that's where my weakness is as someone coming from guitar (and I also enjoy it and feel "more like a bass player", though I absolutely 100% agree that that's silly!), whereas I can (could) already basically pick up a bass and play with a pick just fine.

stickyfiddle

Dave_Mc said:

stickyfiddle said:

ICBM said:

Oddly enough I play almost exclusively with my fingers on a guitar, but currently - for the band I’m in - almost exclusively with a pick for bass. There’s one song in the set which has a fingerstyle bass part. You need the pick to get a fast enough note attack, no matter what a lot of bass snobs think.

I play a lot of other bass with my fingers though, especially fretless which doesn’t really sound right with a pick - I have tried, just to see. Neither is right or wrong any more than it is on a guitar.

100% this - both are essential skills imo. Something like U2's New Year's Day just plain sounds wrong without pick attack, as do most Beatles tracks. But playing James Jamerson lines with a pick sounds horrible. 

Yeah definitely. To be clear- I mainly play with my fingers because that's where my weakness is as someone coming from guitar (and I also enjoy it and feel "more like a bass player", though I absolutely 100% agree that that's silly!), whereas I can (could) already basically pick up a bass and play with a pick just fine.

Yeah same here tbh. I'm actually now more comfortable with fingers on bass because I'm better at string skipping and muting when playing fingerstyle

Whereas on guitar I'm fairly equal on both, but play with pick far more often when I'm with the band because that's what the material usually demands. 

Dave_Mc

stickyfiddle said:

Dave_Mc said:

stickyfiddle said:

ICBM said:

Oddly enough I play almost exclusively with my fingers on a guitar, but currently - for the band I’m in - almost exclusively with a pick for bass. There’s one song in the set which has a fingerstyle bass part. You need the pick to get a fast enough note attack, no matter what a lot of bass snobs think.

I play a lot of other bass with my fingers though, especially fretless which doesn’t really sound right with a pick - I have tried, just to see. Neither is right or wrong any more than it is on a guitar.

100% this - both are essential skills imo. Something like U2's New Year's Day just plain sounds wrong without pick attack, as do most Beatles tracks. But playing James Jamerson lines with a pick sounds horrible. 

Yeah definitely. To be clear- I mainly play with my fingers because that's where my weakness is as someone coming from guitar (and I also enjoy it and feel "more like a bass player", though I absolutely 100% agree that that's silly!), whereas I can (could) already basically pick up a bass and play with a pick just fine.

Yeah same here tbh. I'm actually now more comfortable with fingers on bass because I'm better at string skipping and muting when playing fingerstyle

Whereas on guitar I'm fairly equal on both, but play with pick far more often when I'm with the band because that's what the material usually demands. 

There are a few things now where fingers feel more "natural" to me on bass, but still the odd time I pick up a pick to play bass I still feel like, "Oh wow, this is so much easier!". I think that's to be expected, though, I almost exclusively use a pick on guitar. I'm really bad at fingerpicking, especially "proper" fingerpicking like you'd do on an acoustic! 

Jonathangus

The usual way to indicate a shuffle rhythm without making the notation overly complicated is with a little marking at the beginning of the score, like this:

Dave_Mc

I was just going to say that but was too lazy @Jonathangus . Agreed 

fretmeister

For openness I should admit that one of my old bands did Black Velvet in E to suit the singer.

It felt wrong and dirty. I even bought a D-Tuner so I could play it in Eb easily.

So instead I had to stand on stage, looking at her finely sculpted, leather clad derrière all while feeling wrong and dirty.

Not sure what my point is now. Anyways...

DLM

I think you might have brought us neatly back to Big Bottom? (Surely the answer to the OP, anyway?!)

CarbonCopy

Snags said:

CarbonCopy said:

Snags said:

To refresh my memory of the Black Velvet bass line I hit up Google.

And the very first video they linked ot is a demonstration of way people who don't know notation shouldn't be allowed to publish notation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AlBSh9AWA - whether you're a guitarist or a bassist, if you only know tab, only post tab.

What's wrong with the notation?

It's only taking account of the notes, not the timing. So basically, it's tab-as-notation.

If you were to give that notation to someone who can read, but didn't know the song, they would play all of the notes as quavers (eighth notes) making the whole thing smooth and evenly paced. The whole point of notation is to convey timing info as well. It would be more accurate as a dotted quaver and semi-quaver for each pair. Looking at the rhythm and not worrying about the notes (or the key, as the original is down-tuned to Eb IIRC):

As per the video notation shown as tab:

Count    ||  1  +  2  +  3  +  4  +  |
E string ||  0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--|

As per the song, shown as tab:

Count    ||  1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - |
E string ||  0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-|

Not sure if that helps or hinders, though!

Oh, I see what you're saying, but I think the only thing that's missing from the notation is the performance mark indicating a shuffle rhythm as jonathangus has said. Perhaps it's simply cropped out to fit it on the screen.

I'm not sure what you are proposing would work as you are sub dividing each beat into 4 with a note played on the 1st and 4th semi quaver. That would sound more like a heartbeat than a shuffle which is sub divided into triplets and played on the 1st and 3rd sub divisions.

You could write the whole lot out in triplets but that takes longer and doesn't really help (as long as you have the performance mark)!

Tannin

I cannot think of anything on a bass which can't be played at least as well and usually a lot better with fingers. You can get huge attack with your fingertips if you know how.

fretmeister

Tannin said:

I cannot think of anything on a bass which can't be played at least as well and usually a lot better with fingers. You can get huge attack with your fingertips if you know how.

All of Carole Kaye's parts.
Megadeth's "Peace Sells" and indeed all their stuff
All of Motorhead
Most of Queen. JD swapped to a pick for a reason
McCartney
Chris Squire stuff
Everything Bobby Vega ever did.

It's not about the attack per se - it's about the type of attack. I am a hard finger style player and have been for 35 years. But fingers still sound different to a pick and always will.

Anyway - it's all part of the tool box. A bassist should be competent with fingers and a pick.

ICBM

Tannin said:

I cannot think of anything on a bass which can't be played at least as well and usually a lot better with fingers. You can get huge attack with your fingertips if you know how.

Sorry, you're wrong. Try playing most of my punk band set.

The reason I use a pick - despite being a fingers-only player on both guitar and bass for about twenty years before I played in this band - is that it's the only way to make it sound right.

Funkfingers

Stewart Copeland grumbled about this on The Police's 2007/8 reunion tour. Stingo had gone totally fingerstyle. Copeland argued that many of the more energetic songs required plectrum for both speed and the attack transient on the notes - especially where the original recording was fretless bass.

Bork

theatreanchor said:

Many guitarists think they can play bass. They can’t. They play guitar lines on a bass. Bassists lock in with the drummer, understand groove, countermelody, and rhythm in a way that most guitarists don’t. Guitarists listen to other guitarists without really understanding what the low end is doing. It’s far more interesting and disciplined in many ways. 

Ronnie Wood on Maggie May being a classic example of that.  Although it did fit the song nicely but it's not exactly locking in with the drums and sitting in the pocket.