Tabs vs Ear

Dr_Necessiter

I don't have the ear to do it by ear. I'm hoping that if I work on the technical side of my playing, some theory and enjoy playing some challenging (for me) music then my ear follow along.

axisus

I'm rubbish with both. It does annoy me with tabs that are 'wrong' though, particularly 'official' ones. I have a Thomas Blug book, and he clearly plays somethings differently to the book when you watch live stuff.

I remember attempting to learn the top gun theme many years ago from a tab in a magazine, and the fingering was bloody hard! Years later I saw an excellent guy on Youtube showing ho to play it and he used something more akin to an arpeggiated chord, which was a million times easier. I think that some 'tabbers' are just a bit lazy.

drofluf

dhankotb said:

We used to have compulsory choir too and I would sing badly on purpose so I wouldn't get picked, and then get picked for it anyway.

Maybe I could get my past self to visit your past self and give some singing "lessons"?

dhankotb

drofluf said:

dhankotb said:

We used to have compulsory choir too and I would sing badly on purpose so I wouldn't get picked, and then get picked for it anyway.

Maybe I could get my past self to visit your past self and give some singing "lessons"?

Don't tell anyone but my vocal range is identical to Hayley Williams from Paramore but a few octaves down.

Stuckfast

I was raised on standard notation and find it a bit more intuitive than tab. Learning pedal steel has been interesting though because the tab is absolutely necessary, blobs on stalks alone don't give you enough information.

topdog91

guitarjack66 said:

Good for you people who can learn by ear and proper notation but some of us need tabs to get us started and often dont have the time or experience to learn a song that particular way. The tab is like a young child's first books,in its most basic form and gives those of who have no musical training the chance to enjoy the art form comparatively hassle free. Without it we would simply not be able to indulge and particularly us late starters.

Horses for courses and if you want to only use tabs then as you wish, but there are a couple of points I see differently. Putting in the time is how we improve and how we become experienced. You get out what you put in. It is not like a young child's first books because a) a young child has a massive capacity to learn compared to an adult and b) actual first books teach grammar, syntax, semantics etc which are then built on with more complex books and eventually the ability to speak and comprehend as well as read.

Music is like a language in many ways and being able to read English without being able to speak nor comprehend would be regarded as less than optimal.

Again I see the utility in tabs but there is no reason to ignore ear training completely and only focus on tabs as if they are somehow direct substitutes. Sure, it's hassle-free, it's also relatively development-free and often quite surprisingly inaccurate.

I also don't see the "would simply not be able to indulge". There's nothing about ear training that makes it only for children and prodigies. It's a choice.

topdog91

drofluf said:

I’m with @guitarjack66 on this, I was effectively banned from practical music at school so really started playing in my 50’s.  I don’t have the ear and on the few times I’ve attempted to transcribe something I’ve been humbled by son who’ll hear what I’m trying to do and say something like it’s C# not D after hearing the original once. 

You haven't been "humbled"; you've been corrected which is part of the learning process. Without transcribing things (even without writing them down), the ear won't develop.

drofluf

topdog91 said:

drofluf said:

I’m with @guitarjack66 on this, I was effectively banned from practical music at school so really started playing in my 50’s.  I don’t have the ear and on the few times I’ve attempted to transcribe something I’ve been humbled by son who’ll hear what I’m trying to do and say something like it’s C# not D after hearing the original once. 

You haven't been "humbled"; you've been corrected which is part of the learning process. Without transcribing things (even without writing them down), the ear won't develop.

Wizzed! I think it’s just his breadth of musical knowledge that he grasped so naturally. 

Essentially it’s the difference between starting the process at 5 compared to starting at 50. 

Danny1969

I had a really bad ear for picking out melody at school, despite trying quite hard. My friend however in our band could literally just work things out on the spot despite putting no effort into it. He just had a good ear from a young age. 
Over the years though I worked tirelessly on improving my ear and knowledge. I would listen to songs playing on the radio  on the way to work and mentally work out the chord sequences .. then I would get home, pick up a guitar and see if I had it right. After a while it became more and more right to the point I had taught myself quite accurate relative pitch. 

So relative pitch isn't as good as perfect pitch, I can't just hear a note and know what it is but I can recognize the intervals between 2 notes or chords quite quickly and accurately.  Later I started teaching guitar so taught myself music theory so I could teach guitar properly and get kids though their GCSE music. The knowledge of  theory then gives you the tools to work things out even faster. Because, for example, if a piece of music sounds diatonic (all within one key, no borrowed chords or strange changes) then you know what notes  / chords are used and what aren't. So working out songs gets even quicker and easier. Plus you get to harmonize on the fly and jam with 100% confidence. 

I think I was about 45 before I really learnt basic music theory so it's never too late 

axisus

Danny1969 said:

I had a really bad ear for picking out melody at school, despite trying quite hard. My friend however in our band could literally just work things out on the spot despite putting no effort into it. He just had a good ear from a young age. 
Over the years though I worked tirelessly on improving my ear and knowledge. I would listen to songs playing on the radio  on the way to work and mentally work out the chord sequences .. then I would get home, pick up a guitar and see if I had it right. After a while it became more and more right to the point I had taught myself quite accurate relative pitch. 

So relative pitch isn't as good as perfect pitch, I can't just hear a note and know what it is but I can recognize the intervals between 2 notes or chords quite quickly and accurately.  Later I started teaching guitar so taught myself music theory so I could teach guitar properly and get kids though their GCSE music. The knowledge of  theory then gives you the tools to work things out even faster. Because, for example, if a piece of music sounds diatonic (all within one key, no borrowed chords or strange changes) then you know what notes  / chords are used and what aren't. So working out songs gets even quicker and easier. Plus you get to harmonize on the fly and jam with 100% confidence. 

I think I was about 45 before I really learnt basic music theory so it's never too late 

Good post! 

dhankotb

I was over at a relatives' house last week and didn't have my guitar, then found the youngest's piano, after which I promptly sat down and figured this album out.

I don't have any real experience with piano, but I got to the point where I could tell which notes different sections/octaves were about to fall on. That's mostly from improv on guitar and gaining intuition for theory, insofar as note spacing and positions.

Keefy

I copy the audio into Capo, mark up the different sections, and transcribe it into standard notation. With the software I can slow it down or tweak the pitch if necessary. If I'm stuck I'll look for a lesson on YouTube, preferably one with notation running in it. I don't use tab on its own as it only tells you where to put your fingers - once I have the notes I can usually make my own choices as to how I'm physically going to play it.

I started teaching myself music theory alongside guitar at age 17 and I've been transcribing songs for guitar and bass for almost as long so I now have a substantial library of transcriptions to refer to.

allen

drofluf said:

guitarjack66 said:

Good for you people who can learn by ear and proper notation but some of us need tabs to get us started and often dont have the time or experience to learn a song that particular way. The tab is like a young child's first books,in its most basic form and gives those of who have no musical training the chance to enjoy the art form comparatively hassle free. Without it we would simply not be able to indulge and particularly us late starters.

I’m with @guitarjack66 on this, I was effectively banned from practical music at school so really started playing in my 50’s.  I don’t have the ear and on the few times I’ve attempted to transcribe something I’ve been humbled by son who’ll hear what I’m trying to do and say something like it’s C# not D after hearing the original once. 

I used to live with a friend who was amazing at transcribing. He had an album of the most complex flamenco you've ever heard, went into his bedroom and a week later came out playing the whole thing. With pop songs he didn't even need to have the record on - I would just name a song and within about 30 seconds he'd reel off the chord progression for me just by humming it in his head. Now that is a humbling experience.

It's now almost 40 years later and I dabble at transcribing. I can't do it very well, but I can do it a LOT better than I used to. I do it for the pleasure, sort of like doing a crossword and it's much more satisfying. I encourage you to practice doing it and you will get better.

stufisher

Kinnell @dhankotb ... I've been a fan of Hayley Williams for years because of that range ... and then you can decipher an album using a piano.

Needless to say, you are gifted   ... WOW awarded.

dhankotb

stufisher said:

Kinnell @dhankotb ... I've been a fan of Hayley Williams for years because of that range ... and then you can decipher an album using a piano.

Needless to say, you are gifted   ... WOW awarded.

That is very kind of you to say.
For clarity; vocal range mightn't necessarily been the correct term, it's more like their songs are really comfortable for me to sing in a lower octave that compliments her vocals. (probably the same thing as "vocal range, -octaves")

And that album is (technically) Dungeon Synth, so it's relatively easy to transcribe on piano as is populated by relatively simple, repetitive melodies.

guitarjack66

topdog91 said:

guitarjack66 said:

Good for you people who can learn by ear and proper notation but some of us need tabs to get us started and often dont have the time or experience to learn a song that particular way. The tab is like a young child's first books,in its most basic form and gives those of who have no musical training the chance to enjoy the art form comparatively hassle free. Without it we would simply not be able to indulge and particularly us late starters.

Horses for courses and if you want to only use tabs then as you wish, but there are a couple of points I see differently. Putting in the time is how we improve and how we become experienced. You get out what you put in. It is not like a young child's first books because a) a young child has a massive capacity to learn compared to an adult and b) actual first books teach grammar, syntax, semantics etc which are then built on with more complex books and eventually the ability to speak and comprehend as well as read.

Music is like a language in many ways and being able to read English without being able to speak nor comprehend would be regarded as less than optimal.

Again I see the utility in tabs but there is no reason to ignore ear training completely and only focus on tabs as if they are somehow direct substitutes. Sure, it's hassle-free, it's also relatively development-free and often quite surprisingly inaccurate.

I also don't see the "would simply not be able to indulge". There's nothing about ear training that makes it only for children and prodigies. It's a choice.

The problem is there is no way (I began playing at 52 and I am currently 57) that I could have waited say 5 years to pick up some semblance of ear recognition when I've now been playing for almost 5 years and still have no real ear for music. But a least I was able to pick up a guitar and play basic notes and chords and now even dabble on a keyboard. Those steps are massive for somebody with absolutely zero musical background and with nobody in my family or close friends ever playing an instrument. I am pretty proud of myself yet I could tell you a D from an A or anything basic like that. Don't get me wrong as I'd love to learn musical notation and have an ear for music and if it ever comes to me sometime I will be delighted but I think that in the same way we learn languages quicker,by speaking rather than writing,I think playing trumps anything else at this stage of my life.

topdog91

guitarjack66 said:

topdog91 said:

guitarjack66 said:

Good for you people who can learn by ear and proper notation but some of us need tabs to get us started and often dont have the time or experience to learn a song that particular way. The tab is like a young child's first books,in its most basic form and gives those of who have no musical training the chance to enjoy the art form comparatively hassle free. Without it we would simply not be able to indulge and particularly us late starters.

Horses for courses and if you want to only use tabs then as you wish, but there are a couple of points I see differently. Putting in the time is how we improve and how we become experienced. You get out what you put in. It is not like a young child's first books because a) a young child has a massive capacity to learn compared to an adult and b) actual first books teach grammar, syntax, semantics etc which are then built on with more complex books and eventually the ability to speak and comprehend as well as read.

Music is like a language in many ways and being able to read English without being able to speak nor comprehend would be regarded as less than optimal.

Again I see the utility in tabs but there is no reason to ignore ear training completely and only focus on tabs as if they are somehow direct substitutes. Sure, it's hassle-free, it's also relatively development-free and often quite surprisingly inaccurate.

I also don't see the "would simply not be able to indulge". There's nothing about ear training that makes it only for children and prodigies. It's a choice.

The problem is there is no way (I began playing at 52 and I am currently 57) that I could have waited say 5 years to pick up some semblance of ear recognition when I've now been playing for almost 5 years and still have no real ear for music. But a least I was able to pick up a guitar and play basic notes and chords and now even dabble on a keyboard. Those steps are massive for somebody with absolutely zero musical background and with nobody in my family or close friends ever playing an instrument. I am pretty proud of myself yet I could tell you a D from an A or anything basic like that. Don't get me wrong as I'd love to learn musical notation and have an ear for music and if it ever comes to me sometime I will be delighted but I think that in the same way we learn languages quicker,by speaking rather than writing,I think playing trumps anything else at this stage of my life.

Without wanting to "score points" I'd like to make the case to put a little time into ear training which may pay big dividends.

I don't understand the five years comment. In five years you could have trained your ear somewhat (or well!). You say you still have no real ear for music as if that's because of lack of talent, but it's more likely because you haven't trained your ear. It's great that you've done what you've done and long may it continue, but there's no reason to assume that "having an ear for music" will "just come to you", one has to put in the hours.

As for standard notation, the thread is about tabs vs ear, not standard notation. That was just when all the proper musicians came out to show off.

The thing is, we don't learn languages by speaking. We learn them by (at least) listening, processing, and speaking. Somewhat like ear training. Food for thought?

(Caveat: children learn languages like that; adults often need to learn grammar which you might compare to music theory. Adults who learn languages purely by listening and speaking tend to speak poorly compared to those who learn some grammar as well. This is because adults don't have the sponge-like learning capacity and ability of children.)

Playing is great, ear training for those who want it only enhances playing experience and with apps like Functional Ear Trainer and Perfect Ear, a few minutes a day and the improvement is very real. A good use of toilet time (apparently).

Hootsmon

You don't learn shit with TAB but you do, BIG TIME, with ear

CaseOfAce

axisus said:

I'm rubbish with both. It does annoy me with tabs that are 'wrong' though, particularly 'official' ones. I have a Thomas Blug book, and he clearly plays somethings differently to the book when you watch live stuff.

Sometimes that's deliberate.
Bit of a light bulb moment for me was a Marty Friedman interview where he said he'll change the positioning and fingering of stuff that's on the record to make it more comfortable for himself playing it live.

As regards the OP's question - I'll generally try and figure out chords and riffs by ear... if it's taking too long then I'll go online for the tab. Solos - I'm lazy ... I'll look online.

For certain song's chord voicings I've looked at the (piano) sheet music online - an instance where being able to read standard music notation is useful (I've never put in the effort to sight read proficiently - I just don't have a need to).

Hootsmon

Hootsmon said:

You don't learn shit with TAB but you do, BIG TIME, with ear

Thing with the ear is it's a learning process and you do learn over time how to get better and quicker at picking it up...it trains the lugs