Headless string retainer question

paulnb57

Ive just got a Hipshot headless bridge and am starting a headless build, most headstock string retainers seem to use the tip of a screw to secure each string, why not use a Floyd style locking nut, that has a bigger surface area to trap the string? Am I missing something? Whatever I use it will go behind the existing nut on the neck I going to chop the headstock off.

There will be a post soon covering the build…

jasonbone75

The larger surface area results in a lower force. Arguably too small of a screw would generate too much localised force in one location and cause issues which is why most decent systems settle on a larger screw that won't pinch up but also is still small enough to be discrete.

An M5 or M6 flat point dog grub screw would be about perfect.

(EDIT: I've edited this twice now because I was using the wrong terms. I'm ill and not thinking clearly so it might still be wrong!!)

paulnb57

jasonbone75 said:

The larger surface area results in a lower force. Arguably too small of a screw would generate too much localised force in one location and cause issues which is why most decent systems settle on a larger screw that won't pinch up but also is still small enough to be discrete.

An M5 or M6 flat point dog grub screw would be about perfect.

(EDIT: I've edited this twice now because I was using the wrong terms. I'm ill and not thinking clearly so it might still be wrong!!)

My thoughts are that if it works on a Floyd trem equipped guitar, it should work on a foxed headless bridge guitar, string tension would be similar, so the Floyd locking nut “shouldn’t slip?

The Hipshot retainer fits to the end of the fretboard and the screw go alongside the truss rod, where a Floyd locknut fits to the face of the headstock and the screws go into the face of the headstock, which would suit my build better

@Andy1515 or @Roland care to offer thoughts?

jasonbone75

Yes I agree with that. The Floyd style would work too.

paulnb57

I do realise that changing string would have to be done in pairs using a Floyd nut

xGizmo

paulnb57 said:

I do realise that changing string would have to be done in pairs using a Floyd nut

About the only negative i can see...this guy did it much the same with his Ibby/Stranberg mash up over at SS.org

The string retainer i made myself has a double row of dog screws,which really help with the higher/lighter strings,i really do not like the older style that screw into the end grain of the neck much better to screw down or bolt through the face.

Roland

If the string retainer is held by wood screws which go along the neck, parallel to the truss rod, then there’s no need to widen the neck at the nut end. I like this because I can slide my left hand to the nut without obstacle. It also means that I can keep a capo on the guitar behind the zero fret, rather than having to search for it between songs. However string tension means that it’s difficult to have a clean line, with no gap, between the metal and wood. 

Here’s the Hipshot. You can see that the grub screws have flat ends:

Here’s my first attempt, before I adjusted the joint with a chisel. 

You can also see that the Hipshot has sharp string ends projecting past the end of the neck, which isn’t ideal. Yes, I have scratched my singer with them.

Roland

The Nova is held by screws which go through the neck, meaning that the neck has to bulge around the nut end. To minimise the size I used threaded inserts. Two were sufficient, which is good because the middle two holes are very close to the truss rod.

Big benefit here is that the string retainer isn’t at the end of the neck, protecting people from sharp fret ends. 

Like the Hipshot the Nova grub screws are again flat ended, actually they’re concave. This means that I can avoid using a nut for string separation.

Roland

These are some other retainers I’ve used. 

First something from eBay. It was cheaper than making my own. It was meant for fanned frets, but works if you’ve got the space. The double row of grub screws mean that it’s wide enough not to tip under string tension. Unfortunately the string slots are too wide, and it really needs a nut to maintain string spacing. Not that there are three screw holes, but the middle hole is unusable unless your truss rod is adjusted at the body end

Next Grainger, pictured alongside the Nova. A nice design which buries the string end in the metal. Unfortunately I can’t use it because you have to cut the string to length before fitting, and I use round core strings where the windings unravel if cut. It also needs a wider bulge in the neck because the fixing screws are at the sides.

Lastly, and for comparison only, is the Overlord. I think the technical description is piece of shit. Soft metal alloy, pointed grub screws which won’t hold the string in place without the addition of locking nuts:

paulnb57

Thanks guys, much appreciated

jasonbone75

Having had my first ever headless only a few weeks and changed strings this week I can say the Strandberg boden system works really well!

Andyjr1515

I think that the problem is that there's a missing element here which I would guess renders it an inferior solution to the more usual grub-screw method:


I'm pretty sure these clamps above are designed to cope with the additional pull of the fine-tuning or string bending/whammy levering and that the primary string tension is still held by the machine heads.  So if you were to loosen all the tuners on the strat below after you'd clamped, I would put money on it not being as reliable a hold as if the tuners were either just left in tension or the strings held by individual grub screws:

  


Individual clamps, as at the other end of a floyd, might work, but that probably adds a needless complexity (not to mention the essential right angle string bend at that end)...




 

xGizmo

Just a quick image of the unit i CNC'ed, came out pretty niclly (2nd attempt i messed up the tapping on the first one i cut )

This is the unit that came with my guyker trem which is going on my currrent build,brass body,well made/finshed and a solid unit these go for about £15 on ali....

these are a few new one that have popped up in the past few months there.

(full brass) about £10 delivered

these one's also full brass atm Just £6 delivered! (madness)

or if you dont have a lot of space this looks pretty good @ about £12 all in.

Id say away from those single piece head unit's ala stranberg, i have some T4M ones on a multiscale 7 i built and the are a real PITA to space/mount.

Roland

@Gizmo Those brass ones look good. Not worth making your own, except for the experience.

xGizmo

Roland said:

@Gizmo Those brass ones look good. Not worth making your own, except for the experience.

Yep they do look pretty nice,not like the OLOM dog doo monkey metal parts! the other starnge thing is they don't seem to be a total rip off of anything else that's out there...Orginal looking parts from ali what ever next.

I only milled my own because at the time i could only find those single unit things * the hipshot org hipshot unit was like £95 the brass block i brought was £4 and the dog gruns £1 !

ICBM

Andyjr1515 said:

I'm pretty sure these clamps above are designed to cope with the additional pull of the fine-tuning or string bending/whammy levering and that the primary string tension is still held by the machine heads.  So if you were to loosen all the tuners on the strat below after you'd clamped, I would put money on it not being as reliable a hold as if the tuners were either just left in tension or the strings held by individual grub screws

You'd lose your money.

With a properly tightly clamped Floyd nut, you can remove the bridge from the guitar with the strings at full tension, by taking the springs off and lifting it out, take off the pickguard and do whatever work you need to on the electrics, replace the pickguard and bridge, put the springs back on and the guitar will still be in tune. Really... I've done it countless times.

When the bridge is out of the guitar there's the same tension on the nut - in the opposite direction - as if you have the nut clamped with no machineheads.

jasonbone75

Yep agreed ^ I've always done this for working on JEMs and RGs

WezV

Just seen this from Sophia Trems

Floyd style, but individual string locks, and a bit more graceful than many.... but i assume it costs a bomb

MARVlN

Just to help, I've got a headless guitar with a Floyd locking nut as the string retainer. Built last year, my #1, and works very well (as well as being cheap and readily available, plus in a variety of widths/spacings).

paulnb57

Thanks for all the replies folks, much to muse on….

Andyjr1515

ICBM said:

Andyjr1515 said:

I'm pretty sure these clamps above are designed to cope with the additional pull of the fine-tuning or string bending/whammy levering and that the primary string tension is still held by the machine heads.  So if you were to loosen all the tuners on the strat below after you'd clamped, I would put money on it not being as reliable a hold as if the tuners were either just left in tension or the strings held by individual grub screws

You'd lose your money.

With a properly tightly clamped Floyd nut, you can remove the bridge from the guitar with the strings at full tension, by taking the springs off and lifting it out, take off the pickguard and do whatever work you need to on the electrics, replace the pickguard and bridge, put the springs back on and the guitar will still be in tune. Really... I've done it countless times.

When the bridge is out of the guitar there's the same tension on the nut - in the opposite direction - as if you have the nut clamped with no machineheads.

Which is why I'm not a rich man