Are budget MFX closing the amp modelling gap on expensive MFX?

Voxman

My Pod Go is a 'Pod' not a 'Helix' so doesn't have the processing power, dual routing and all the extras in Helix.  But it still utilises Helix modelling and aside from some Helix models that are too DSP heavy for it to have, and the technical over-sampling in Helix (that I can't tell the difference), it's essentially a 'mini-Helix' and Helix is supposed to still be right up there on the modelling ladder.

Last year I tried for a few weeks a Boss GX100, based on the GT1000, & that for all its AIRD hype I didn't think sounded any different to my Pod Go with a decent IR, and before buying Pod Go I also tried the Mooer GE300 and Ampero.  

Recently I tried a budget unit (normally c £298, special offer, it was £206!), the Valeton GP200 made by Sonicake. I ultimately returned it as it doesn't show on screen what's engaged by the control foot-switches which made it useless for my gigging needs. (In stomp mode it just shows ABCD whereas Pod Go shows what you've set the switch to.  Bad design shortfall that I hope they'll fix.)

But that aside, I was very impressed at the quality of its underlying amp modelling. Even allowing for the new cab engine and IRs in Pod Go, the GP200 sounded every bit as good and possibly even a little better if I'm honest, and that was even with its stock cabs.  It's effects sounded really good too. 

Now, whilst I haven't heard units like Quad Cortex, putting aside all the things you expect from a top end unit and that you're paying for re build quality, reliability, customer support, sophisticated features, parameter options, quantity of models, versatility of connections, multi-routings, DSP and signal chain lengths etc and just focusing on the underlying amp modelling quality, it really got me thinking - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  I'm thinking purely modelers here, not profilers like Kemper.   

And are there really any modelers out there that genuinely, truly sound like an 'amp in the room' rather than a mic'd amp/cab? Or is the big difference now all just about good third party cab IR's that you can import to any modern MFX anyway?

Thoughts/experiences?    

LionAquaLooper

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, military vehicles, you name it).  Espionage and piracy is their forte.  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

Danny1969

The Pod might be a cheap Helix but I prefer the £55 Nux Plug .. it just sounds better to my ears and the chip that does the processing on that is £11.24 

I think the days are coming when a unit has a generic ARM equipped processor and you just load it yourself. 

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

I think it's much the same as with the quality of guitar building in recent years. The budget stuff like Squiers/Epiphones/PRS SE and loads of other far eastern made brands is massively better than it was 15-20 years ago.

Are higher end, premium guitars better? Generally yes, but the gap has closed hugely. 

Are the Kempers/Fractals/AxeFX of the world better than the likes of NUX, Valeton et Al? Yes, but not by nearly as much as the price difference might make you think.

Heartfeltdawn

Voxman said:

 - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  

No. There's still a gulf between Fractal and everyone else in my view. 

LionAquaLooper said:

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, you name it).  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

And if there's one thing those guys do badly, it's user interface. With all of these modellers, it's about the total package.  

Voxman

Heartfeltdawn said:

Voxman said:

 - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  

No. There's still a gulf between Fractal and everyone else in my view. 

LionAquaLooper said:

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, you name it).  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

And if there's one thing those guys do badly, it's user interface. With all of these modellers, it's about the total package.  

Are Fractal and Quad Cortex of equivalent quality re amp modeling? 

LionAquaLooper

LionAquaLooper said:

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, you name it).  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

And if there's one thing those guys do badly, it's user interface. With all of these modellers, it's about the total package.  

It's early days.  Give it time.

Blaendulais

Voxman said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Voxman said:

 - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  

No. There's still a gulf between Fractal and everyone else in my view. 

LionAquaLooper said:

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, you name it).  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

And if there's one thing those guys do badly, it's user interface. With all of these modellers, it's about the total package.  

Are Fractal and Quad Cortex of equivalent quality re amp modeling? 

Owning both I say, and i'm not an 'advanced' user the fractal sounds are of higher quality - thats is at least thro either my monitors or a kemper kab.

fretmeister

Voxman said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Voxman said:

 - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  

No. There's still a gulf between Fractal and everyone else in my view. 

LionAquaLooper said:

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, you name it).  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

And if there's one thing those guys do badly, it's user interface. With all of these modellers, it's about the total package.  

Are Fractal and Quad Cortex of equivalent quality re amp modeling? 

Fractal owners say no.
QC owners say no.

But from the opposite ends of the argument!

TTBZ

Danny1969 said:

The Pod might be a cheap Helix but I prefer the £55 Nux Plug .. it just sounds better to my ears and the chip that does the processing on that is £11.24 

I think the days are coming when a unit has a generic ARM equipped processor and you just load it yourself. 

I prefer the NUX Mighty Plug Pro to the HX Stomps I had as well, does the Marshall type amps better. Wouldn't mind trying the Amp Academy.

Littlejonny

Voxman said:

My Pod Go is a 'Pod' not a 'Helix' so doesn't have the processing power, dual routing and all the extras in Helix.  But it still utilises Helix modelling and aside from some Helix models that are too DSP heavy for it to have, and the technical over-sampling in Helix (that I can't tell the difference), it's essentially a 'mini-Helix' and Helix is supposed to still be right up there on the modelling ladder.

Last year I tried for a few weeks a Boss GX100, based on the GT1000, & that for all its AIRD hype I didn't think sounded any different to my Pod Go with a decent IR, and before buying Pod Go I also tried the Mooer GE300 and Ampero.  

Recently I tried a budget unit (normally c £298, special offer, it was £206!), the Valeton GP200 made by Sonicake. I ultimately returned it as it doesn't show on screen what's engaged by the control foot-switches which made it useless for my gigging needs. (In stomp mode it just shows ABCD whereas Pod Go shows what you've set the switch to.  Bad design shortfall that I hope they'll fix.)

But that aside, I was very impressed at the quality of its underlying amp modelling. Even allowing for the new cab engine and IRs in Pod Go, the GP200 sounded every bit as good and possibly even a little better if I'm honest, and that was even with its stock cabs.  It's effects sounded really good too. 

Now, whilst I haven't heard units like Quad Cortex, putting aside all the things you expect from a top end unit and that you're paying for re build quality, reliability, customer support, sophisticated features, parameter options, quantity of models, versatility of connections, multi-routings, DSP and signal chain lengths etc and just focusing on the underlying amp modelling quality, it really got me thinking - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  I'm thinking purely modelers here, not profilers like Kemper.   

And are there really any modelers out there that genuinely, truly sound like an 'amp in the room' rather than a mic'd amp/cab? Or is the big difference now all just about good third party cab IR's that you can import to any modern MFX anyway?

Thoughts/experiences?    

It doesn’t surprise me. We are getting to the point where the sound difference between any of them is negligible.

Also, we get hung-up on accuracy…the most important question is ‘does it sound good?’. You could find YOUR sound in a cheap Chinese amp modeller. 

Voxman

Littlejonny said:

It doesn’t surprise me. We are getting to the point where the sound difference between any of them is negligible.

Also, we get hung-up on accuracy…the most important question is ‘does it sound good?’. You could find YOUR sound in a cheap Chinese amp modeller. 

All the Helix/Pod Go gear is made in China I think. So much gear is now either made in China, Korea, Vietnam or (for Boss) Japan. 

nero1701

In my mind, mfx and processors ect follow the same trajectory as a new car. 

If you want to know what technology you are going to get in a Ford focus or a vauxhall astra in 10 years time, look at the tech available in the current Mercedes.

The Boss GT5 was revolutionary in its day, and just a few years later, that tech was commonplace. 

cowie86

After a lot of research, I just bought my first modeller (Boss GX100) yesterday. I poured over the specs and demos for weeks and there already seemed to be a lot of pros to the GX100 that weren't even available on the GT1000 (touch screen, dual chain, more flexibility with blocks). Ultimately, I'd have loved to try a FM9 Turbo or a full size Helix but they're too expensive for a first modeller.

It seems like a lot of people place a lot of importance on IRs when it comes to getting good sound from a modeller. That's interesting because if IR are the magic ingredient, the same IR can be uploaded to any modeller (cheap or expensive) as long as it's got IR loading capabilities.

I don't want to hijack the thread but a similar thought I had recently was - if the sounds in the FM9, QC or Helix are already 90% as good as the real gear, how much market is left for future modellers? Yeah Fractal, Neural and Line 6 can keep bringing out new modellers, but the sound can never be a greater than 10% improvement on what's here already.

LionAquaLooper

cowie86 said:

if the sounds in the FM9, QC or Helix are already 90% as good as the real gear, how much market is left for future modellers? Yeah Fractal, Neural and Line 6 can keep bringing out new modellers, but the sound can never be a greater than 10% improvement on what's here already.

Trust me - the marketing people will find a way.

It's the same with golf clubs for example.  There's only so much tech you can fit into a tiny club head and it's been decades since the industry reached the point of maximising tech.  But every year manufacturers still release new models with new promises of improvements, better this, better that.  It's all smoke and mirrors.  But people still lap them up  

With multifx it won't be the sounds that will be improved though.  It'll be (and should be) graphical and physical interfaces, cosmetics and connectivity.

guitarmangler

Hmm. They are great, but still not quite there for some things. The helix’s flangers, for example.

 You could see that in the future you’d be able to profile ( with the Kemper mark 5, say) an amp and actually capture how the controls work, rather than how captures work now. 

Roland

cowie86 said:

… if the sounds in the FM9, QC or Helix are already 90% as good as the real gear, how much market is left for future modellers? Yeah Fractal, Neural and Line 6 can keep bringing out new modellers, but the sound can never be a greater than 10% improvement on what's here already.

There is more to modellers than just amp sounds. We are currently seeing forum interest in IRs for speaker and microphone modelling. Recent Fractal firmware updates have bought very sophisticated reverbs and other effects. Personally I’m interested in live control, integrating sound and lighting changes.

Chimpankie

Blaendulais said:

Voxman said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Voxman said:

 - have we now reached the stage where amp modelling quality between top end & budget units isn't actually hugely different?  

No. There's still a gulf between Fractal and everyone else in my view. 

LionAquaLooper said:

It's bound to happen, especially with Chinese-made gear.  If there's one thing those guys do, it's copy well established brands down to a T (not just music gear either but they do it with trainers, handbags, cars, phones, you name it).  Won't be long before a budget "manufacturer" like Amoon comes out with unit as good as a Fractal or HX lol.      

And if there's one thing those guys do badly, it's user interface. With all of these modellers, it's about the total package.  

Are Fractal and Quad Cortex of equivalent quality re amp modeling? 

Owning both I say, and i'm not an 'advanced' user the fractal sounds are of higher quality - thats is at least thro either my monitors or a kemper kab.

Having owned both I'd agree Fractal just about edges it with sounds, but Neural QD interface crushes the Fractal. I don't own either anymore but would happily buy/gig either. If Fractal can get some of the ease of use that Neural has, then their next product line could be killer.

mike257

Roland said:

cowie86 said:

… if the sounds in the FM9, QC or Helix are already 90% as good as the real gear, how much market is left for future modellers? Yeah Fractal, Neural and Line 6 can keep bringing out new modellers, but the sound can never be a greater than 10% improvement on what's here already.

There is more to modellers than just amp sounds. We are currently seeing forum interest in IRs for speaker and microphone modelling. Recent Fractal firmware updates have bought very sophisticated reverbs and other effects. Personally I’m interested in live control, integrating sound and lighting changes.

MIDI is still your best friend for that - if you can fire a MIDI message on a patch change, lots of sound and lighting consoles will be able to accept that and interpret it as a command of your choice - a scene recall in your mixer, or an advance to the appropriate cue in your lighting console. 

I've always ran it the other way round though - if you've got a show running on click then using timecode and midi messages to automate lights, patch/control changes in guitar and keys rigs, scene recall in audio consoles, video playback etc makes for a very slick show. 

Roland

@mike257 I’m currently using Scene MIDI in the AxeFX to change lighting programmes through the song, for example changing colourway and/or pace as we step from Intro to Verse to Chorus to Bridge. As a band we’ve talked about using a click to drive everything, but currently think that’s a step too far for the venues we play. 

Musicwolf

mike257 said:

I've always ran it the other way round though - if you've got a show running on click then using timecode and midi messages to automate lights, patch/control changes in guitar and keys rigs, scene recall in audio consoles, video playback etc makes for a very slick show. 

This is the way that I do it.  Windows laptop running Cantabile is at the heart of my system using MIDI to run the lights (QLC+), control the XR-18 digital mixer and switch patches / snapshots on my Helix.  I just play / interact with the audience.