Pickup dissatisfaction

stickyfiddle

I adore the 57 Classics in my SG. BUT they're a very limited run of alnico-3 57s, which sound totally different to the regular boring A2 ones. 

But if in doubt a really decent set of handwound PAF types should be a good bet for an SG. 

rlw

Philly_Q said:

rlw said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that a guitar will sound pretty similar, rather than night and day, after a normal pickup swap. 

It might sound a bit clearer or cleaner, or dirtier if that's your thing, but the basic tone of the wood is not going to change a great deal.

Tone of the wood...? 

Yes.  I think we know that a lump of mahogany will sound different to a lump of ash or obeche or basswood or whatever when turned into a guitar, with a mahogany or maple or carbon or aluminium neck.

And that guitar will have a unique sound character, dependent entirely upon the methods used when building it,  whatever pickups you put into it.

  

You can fiddle around the edges but the characteristics are set in stone .  You won't make a 335 sound like a Strat simply by putting three single coils in it and you can't make a Strat sound much like an LP by putting humbuckers in it.

I'm not saying that the woods used affect the tone for better of for worse; rather the guitar will sound like itself whatever pickups you choose, short of changing it beyond recognition.

..and notice I didn't use the word tonewood....

Supportact

I like the 57 classics I put in my Aria pro 2 (335 type). I think it had a set of Epiphone pickups in before that so there was a clear difference. 

PLOP

rlw said:

Philly_Q said:

rlw said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that a guitar will sound pretty similar, rather than night and day, after a normal pickup swap. 

It might sound a bit clearer or cleaner, or dirtier if that's your thing, but the basic tone of the wood is not going to change a great deal.

Tone of the wood...? 

Yes.  I think we know that a lump of mahogany will sound different to a lump of ash or obeche or basswood or whatever when turned into a guitar, with a mahogany or maple or carbon or aluminium neck.

And that guitar will have a unique sound character, dependent entirely upon the methods used when building it,  whatever pickups you put into it.

  

You can fiddle around the edges but the characteristics are set in stone .  You won't make a 335 sound like a Strat simply by putting three single coils in it and you can't make a Strat sound much like an LP by putting humbuckers in it.

I'm not saying that the woods used affect the tone for better of for worse; rather the guitar will sound like itself whatever pickups you choose, short of changing it beyond recognition.

..and notice I didn't use the word tonewood....

 I don’t think there’s any value in different wood for electrics. I’d say the difference between the Gibson and fender scale lengths has much more influence than the wood used, because the pickups are what makes the sound. Acoustics will be different, and I’ll concede on semi hollow like 335s, but I don’t think the wood on an LP/Tele/Strat etc makes any difference. I also don’t think there will be much difference between set and bolt on necks. 

OilCityPickups

Voxman said:

Revolutions said:

That reminds me… 

LOL - but, on a serious note, it's interesting that guitar cables are always 'forgotten' yet they are an essential component of the signal chain and different cables can have a surprisingly big impact on tone.  

The reason I gig with radio ... 

FelineGuitars

I'll bet that the SG had 300k ohm pots that cut the top end frequencies off anything that goes in. 

swapping to 500 k would have allowed more top end through (and wire the caps in 50s style too).

Also there are physical changes that allow more perceived clarity in high frequencies 

1 Fit Earvana nut

2 swap tailpiece to aluminium one if not already

Philly_Q

rlw said:

Philly_Q said:

rlw said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that a guitar will sound pretty similar, rather than night and day, after a normal pickup swap. 

It might sound a bit clearer or cleaner, or dirtier if that's your thing, but the basic tone of the wood is not going to change a great deal.

Tone of the wood...? 

Yes.  I think we know that a lump of mahogany will sound different to a lump of ash or obeche or basswood or whatever when turned into a guitar, with a mahogany or maple or carbon or aluminium neck.

Yeah, sorry... I was just mucking about.  I didn't wanna be startin' somethin'...  

FelineGuitars

The wood of the guitar does make a difference but is possibly outweighed by al the other items in the signal path.

But factors like hardware and scale length can play a part too.

Loudspeaker choices as the last item in the signal path before your ear would probably be a big determining factor.

Yorkie

Might sound like a stupid suggestion, but make sure you try a different guitar cable before you buy anything more expensive. 

Revolutions

This is a fascinating practical exploration of where guitar tone comes from: https://youtu.be/n02tImce3AE?si=x4L1jbqhOu6ZZW-f

The guy has loads of similar videos on guitar sustain, speaker cabs etc…

Philly_Q

Revolutions said:

This is a fascinating practical exploration of where guitar tone comes from: https://youtu.be/n02tImce3AE?si=x4L1jbqhOu6ZZW-f

The guy has loads of similar videos on guitar sustain, speaker cabs etc…

You're new here and not in a position to know, but that video has been posted on the FB about 10,000 times.

Revolutions

Philly_Q said:

Revolutions said:

This is a fascinating practical exploration of where guitar tone comes from: https://youtu.be/n02tImce3AE?si=x4L1jbqhOu6ZZW-f

The guy has loads of similar videos on guitar sustain, speaker cabs etc…

You're new here and not in a position to know, but that video has been posted on the FB about 10,000 times.

Correction: 10,001

Apologies, should have realised the same conversations have been done to death here too, just like everywhere else 

Philly_Q

Revolutions said:

Apologies, should have realised the same conversations have been done to death here too, just like everywhere else 

Don't worry, it's never stopped us before.  Someone will start a "what plectrums do you use" thread later. 

TeleMaster

Change them. I never care what a guitar sounds like when I buy it because I won't have my amp in the shop so even if it sounds good or bad there, it might sound completely different at gig volumes, and you can never tell what a guitar is really about unless you turn it up anyway, and how much it rings unplugged is meaningless. I don't buy into the whole wood argument so if the guitar feels good, has the specs I need, I know I'll be able to manipulate the sound with pickup changes.

rlw

PLOP said:

rlw said:

Philly_Q said:

rlw said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that a guitar will sound pretty similar, rather than night and day, after a normal pickup swap. 

It might sound a bit clearer or cleaner, or dirtier if that's your thing, but the basic tone of the wood is not going to change a great deal.

Tone of the wood...? 

Yes.  I think we know that a lump of mahogany will sound different to a lump of ash or obeche or basswood or whatever when turned into a guitar, with a mahogany or maple or carbon or aluminium neck.

And that guitar will have a unique sound character, dependent entirely upon the methods used when building it,  whatever pickups you put into it.

  

You can fiddle around the edges but the characteristics are set in stone .  You won't make a 335 sound like a Strat simply by putting three single coils in it and you can't make a Strat sound much like an LP by putting humbuckers in it.

I'm not saying that the woods used affect the tone for better of for worse; rather the guitar will sound like itself whatever pickups you choose, short of changing it beyond recognition.

..and notice I didn't use the word tonewood....

 I don’t think there’s any value in different wood for electrics. I’d say the difference between the Gibson and fender scale lengths has much more influence than the wood used, because the pickups are what makes the sound. Acoustics will be different, and I’ll concede on semi hollow like 335s, but I don’t think the wood on an LP/Tele/Strat etc makes any difference. I also don’t think there will be much difference between set and bolt on necks. 

If you make a paulownia LP and compare it to a solid mahogany LP, both with the same pickups, neck joint strings etc, they will sound different.  Maybe not a lot, but there will be a difference between the two core sounds.   All I'm saying is that changing the pickups will make a small difference but the core, whether it be very bright or very sustaining, will remain the essentially the same.    SGs sound different to LPs with the same pickups etc.   Changing the pickups isn't going to make an SG sound like an LP with the same pickups because the core sounds are different.

IMO.  

Anyway, I think changing pickups can often not be the panacea one hoped for.

strtdv

FelineGuitars said:

I'll bet that the SG had 300k ohm pots that cut the top end frequencies off anything that goes in. 

swapping to 500 k would have allowed more top end through (and wire the caps in 50s style too).

Also there are physical changes that allow more perceived clarity in high frequencies 

1 Fit Earvana nut

2 swap tailpiece to aluminium one if not already

It was a Derek Trucks SG, 500k pots all round

strtdv

TeleMaster said:

Change them. I never care what a guitar sounds like when I buy it because I won't have my amp in the shop so even if it sounds good or bad there, it might sound completely different at gig volumes, and you can never tell what a guitar is really about unless you turn it up anyway, and how much it rings unplugged is meaningless. I don't buy into the whole wood argument so if the guitar feels good, has the specs I need, I know I'll be able to manipulate the sound with pickup changes.

Bringing your amp to the shop before you spend a couple of grand on a guitar is actually a great idea. I'd imagine most guitar shops wouldn't mind

Matt_McG

I've had reasonable success with pickup changes in the past. I have a 2 x PRS SE model, and replaced the stock pickups with some of @OilCityPickups P90s.

I don't think it completely changed the guitar, but the stock pickups had quite a pronounced "sizzly" top end, more upper mids and were a bit more gainy. The replacements are a little smoother, and more complex sounding—hard to talk about sound without getting all wine-snob "pseud"—it's not night and day, and I could see how someone who mostly played brasher, rockier styles might actually prefer the stock pickups, but for me it made a noticeable improvement.

OilCityPickups

rlw said:

PLOP said:

rlw said:

Philly_Q said:

rlw said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that a guitar will sound pretty similar, rather than night and day, after a normal pickup swap. 

It might sound a bit clearer or cleaner, or dirtier if that's your thing, but the basic tone of the wood is not going to change a great deal.

Tone of the wood...? 

Yes.  I think we know that a lump of mahogany will sound different to a lump of ash or obeche or basswood or whatever when turned into a guitar, with a mahogany or maple or carbon or aluminium neck.

And that guitar will have a unique sound character, dependent entirely upon the methods used when building it,  whatever pickups you put into it.

  

You can fiddle around the edges but the characteristics are set in stone .  You won't make a 335 sound like a Strat simply by putting three single coils in it and you can't make a Strat sound much like an LP by putting humbuckers in it.

I'm not saying that the woods used affect the tone for better of for worse; rather the guitar will sound like itself whatever pickups you choose, short of changing it beyond recognition.

..and notice I didn't use the word tonewood....

 I don’t think there’s any value in different wood for electrics. I’d say the difference between the Gibson and fender scale lengths has much more influence than the wood used, because the pickups are what makes the sound. Acoustics will be different, and I’ll concede on semi hollow like 335s, but I don’t think the wood on an LP/Tele/Strat etc makes any difference. I also don’t think there will be much difference between set and bolt on necks. 

If you make a paulownia LP and compare it to a solid mahogany LP, both with the same pickups, neck joint strings etc, they will sound different.  Maybe not a lot, but there will be a difference between the two core sounds.   All I'm saying is that changing the pickups will make a small difference but the core, whether it be very bright or very sustaining, will remain the essentially the same.    SGs sound different to LPs with the same pickups etc.   Changing the pickups isn't going to make an SG sound like an LP with the same pickups because the core sounds are different.

IMO.  

Anyway, I think changing pickups can often not be the panacea one hoped for.

What you are saying is ... when all else is equal the woods of the guitar make more difference than the pickups? 

Let me introduce ... 


But of course sometimes its ... 


Sometimes it has P90s ... sometimes Gold Foils  

All with the same wood, the same strings, the same everything ... as the centre section of the guitar slides out without any need to re tune even ...

A perfect test bed to test if changing pickups changes tone  ... because absolutely nothing else changes.

 

Kurtis

OilCityPickups said:

impmann said:

It’s funny - I replaced the stock, muddy, flubby and generally wayyyy too hot humbuckers in my 2004 Gibson SG Special with 57 Classics. It brought the guitar to life and sounds utterly incredible.

So much so that three other SGs have passed through here and have all been sold, whilst the black 04 Special remains - and is a 100% keeper, having had it 19 years.

I’ve kept the original mudbuckers purely for originality. 

Genuinely, I love the 57s and they sound big, open and harmonically rich - I don’t understand the hatred. 

My experience has been somewhat different that's all :-)  I've had two Gibsons personally with 57 Classics and found them as the OP said 'woolly and indistinct' ... the combination of no coil offset with a polished A2 magnet I find totally characterless. Especially in the bridge! 
We all have our preferences, and I prefer what feels to me more harmonics and character that's all :-)

You do say they're simply not very good and by design totally characterless though.